Hey Appicha,
hope your trip was well :)
Yes, it is dreadfully simple.
Let's take it a step further.
Was there ever a self?
Will there ever be?
Can a self suddenly come back in and take control?
Really look in to these... don't rush it please :)
with Love.
Ready to be guided...
Re: Ready to be guided...
Hello
It's good to be home thanks,
"Was there ever a self?
Will there ever be?
Can a self suddenly come back in and take control?"
Clearly there never was a self. A false sense of self was caused by childhood conditioning, identification with thoughts as 'substantial'.
There can never be a self other than in a 'conventional usage' such as 'I am writing to you'.
A temporary identification with thought can arise, particularly in times of stress or suffering, but this passes and clarity returns. There is a resdue of habit and conditioning which won't disappear immediately.
In this way the illusion of self suddenly coming back in and taking control could seem to happen like going to the movies and suspending disbelief- strong emotions and physical sensations occour but the film ends and reality continues seen for what it is.
thanks, appicha x
It's good to be home thanks,
"Was there ever a self?
Will there ever be?
Can a self suddenly come back in and take control?"
Clearly there never was a self. A false sense of self was caused by childhood conditioning, identification with thoughts as 'substantial'.
There can never be a self other than in a 'conventional usage' such as 'I am writing to you'.
A temporary identification with thought can arise, particularly in times of stress or suffering, but this passes and clarity returns. There is a resdue of habit and conditioning which won't disappear immediately.
In this way the illusion of self suddenly coming back in and taking control could seem to happen like going to the movies and suspending disbelief- strong emotions and physical sensations occour but the film ends and reality continues seen for what it is.
thanks, appicha x
Re: Ready to be guided...
Appicha,
Beautiful. I will address a few of your comments here:
So :)
Have you seen through the illusion of the separate self?
Are there any doubts?
Are you ready for the final questions?
with Love.
Beautiful. I will address a few of your comments here:
No, conditioning remains, but conditioning isn't necessarily a problem because it is not YOUR conditioning, it is just an expression of life. Once the core is seen through, the illusion and conditioning has NOTHING to stick to and sorts itself out very naturally. Surrender is the key here. Even the idea that there is 'conditioning' can be challenged. Although it is very useful to challenge lingering assumptions (which may and probably will remain after "I" is seen through), it is also important to question even 'clearing conditioning'. Life is as it is, and it takes care of itself :) Relaxation can occur, and you can continue to explore knowing that you are no-thing, and yet everything.here is a resdue of habit and conditioning which won't disappear immediately.
Yes, in this way the illusion of self can come back in, yet that is no problem, as you see that there is no actual self. These lingering habitual tendencies will clear themselves out naturally, or by looking at any lingering assumptions of separation there are.In this way the illusion of self suddenly coming back in and taking control could seem to happen like going to the movies and suspending disbelief- strong emotions and physical sensations occour but the film ends and reality continues seen for what it is.
So :)
Have you seen through the illusion of the separate self?
Are there any doubts?
Are you ready for the final questions?
with Love.
Re: Ready to be guided...
Hello
"Have you seen through the illusion of the separate self?
Are there any doubts?
Are you ready for the final questions?"
Yes, I've seen through the illusion of the separate self, No doubts, I'm ready for any questions but I'm not sure what 'final' means,
love appicha
"Have you seen through the illusion of the separate self?
Are there any doubts?
Are you ready for the final questions?"
Yes, I've seen through the illusion of the separate self, No doubts, I'm ready for any questions but I'm not sure what 'final' means,
love appicha
Re: Ready to be guided...
Hey Appicha,
The "final" questions are to show that you have seen through the illusion. It is reviewed by other guides and you will either be Confirmed, or asked clarification questions. If confirmed, you will have access to our after-care/exploration groups, and have the opportunity to guide others. Sorry if these questions are repetitive, but they are important to encapsulate the expression of your realization so far.
Please answer in detail, each question, honestly and earnestly, and refer to direct experience. If the questions requires analysis and speculation, start with direct experience, here and now first, then let thoughts flow.
1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?
1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?
7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?
8) what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?
9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?
The "final" questions are to show that you have seen through the illusion. It is reviewed by other guides and you will either be Confirmed, or asked clarification questions. If confirmed, you will have access to our after-care/exploration groups, and have the opportunity to guide others. Sorry if these questions are repetitive, but they are important to encapsulate the expression of your realization so far.
Please answer in detail, each question, honestly and earnestly, and refer to direct experience. If the questions requires analysis and speculation, start with direct experience, here and now first, then let thoughts flow.
1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?
1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?
7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?
8) what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?
9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?
Re: Ready to be guided...
Hello cosmiK
I'm cutting and pasting these questions as I had trouble using the 'quote' feature for each question. I hope this works...
1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?
There is no you or me in direct experience or ever was. This is/was a conventional classification used for convenience but not a statement about reality.
1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?
What is being referred to is the experience of physical and mental sensations which this psycho/physical organism registers.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
It seems that infants don't experience this illusion. The breast from which it feeds is not perceived as separate. A sense of separateness seems to appear as a result of a lack of immediate gratification- the breast does not appear in sync with hunger. Sensations occur which are perceived as painful or pleasurable resulting in grasping or aversion. This creates a sense of self made up of the illusion of choice- my likes and dislikes, views and opinions, trying to maintain a safe boundary in an uncontrollable flow of sensation.
3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.
It feels like a relief to stop looking for a refuge from the flow of life. To accept being part of this flow, not separate from it, is to be simple and connected to all of life. There is a sensation of letting go into that which is obvious yet resisted- this is all there is yet 'all' is everything and 'nothing'. It's a paradox, a mystery- knowing nothing and everything.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
I would describe it as above but add that the pain or frustration one experiences can't be quelled by choosing a 'better antidote'. This can only mask the symptoms. To experience life joyfully the question of what or who one is must be investigated. The answer is not difficult or intellectually demanding, it's utterly simple when we start to look directly. We really can start to see the 'wood for the trees'.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
There was no last bit. It has been a gradual process of illusion being pointed to like light being shone into dark or unseen corners. The process of accepting all sensation as not self or separate from the flow has been, and continues to be, the most significant aspect. Answering these questions illuminates the process, showing the unnecessary complication that mind can create.
6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?
Before seeing there was a search for 'something more' to add to the process. A hunger for a 'more acceptable answer' which corresponded to something 'spiritual' and 'other'. There was a desire to elevate the self from the mundane stuff of life.
The process of seeing, or acceptance, was more like an embrace of this 'mundane stuff' and seeing the illusion of judgment which created the sense of separateness.
The key difference is one of perception: 'In here' looking 'out there'. The simplicity of awareness/ energy being impersonal- not self/other- what a relief!
7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?
The above might be a typo 'in what ways has thing changed your life'.
This process has changed my life by replacing confusion or complication with simplicity. This means less compounded pain 'within and without'.
The impact is one of acceptance and freedom- the potential to dance with life's flow realising that all is part of that flow even the illusion of the flow being 'stuck or interrupted'. This is liberation...
8) what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?
That's fine, I'm happy for you to have your own views. I've investigated mine and found that views just add to the problem. Through your cult I've found something useful so thanks for that. This won't be the first time I've subscribed to something that had a 'sell by' date. This is how I've learnt so far. Thanks for not asking for money, that's usually a giveaway!
9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?
I really appreciate your time and patience. To be able to communicate such simple subtlety is skillful. It's a very difficult knowing where somebody is 'coming from' and it took a week before we started to really communicate (not long really).
There wasn't much contextualization so I looked around the LU website to get a sense of the 'local culture'. I got a sense we were following a script at times, when I accepted this I was able to accept the need to repeat things I'd said in earlier posts. There was a 'tipping point' at which you pointed out a particular unseen view which made the engagement vital and exciting.
I suspect you're in a different time zone so delay was inevitable. Calling you 'cosmiK' seemed a bit alienating for me at first (I used my own names), especially once we'd reached the 'tipping point' and communication was flowing.
It felt like a barrier to direct communication but perhaps it also created a sense of talking to 'nobody'... beyond speculation, gender or 'name and address'...
Above all heartfelt thanks to you!
love appicha
I'm cutting and pasting these questions as I had trouble using the 'quote' feature for each question. I hope this works...
1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?
There is no you or me in direct experience or ever was. This is/was a conventional classification used for convenience but not a statement about reality.
1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?
What is being referred to is the experience of physical and mental sensations which this psycho/physical organism registers.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
It seems that infants don't experience this illusion. The breast from which it feeds is not perceived as separate. A sense of separateness seems to appear as a result of a lack of immediate gratification- the breast does not appear in sync with hunger. Sensations occur which are perceived as painful or pleasurable resulting in grasping or aversion. This creates a sense of self made up of the illusion of choice- my likes and dislikes, views and opinions, trying to maintain a safe boundary in an uncontrollable flow of sensation.
3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.
It feels like a relief to stop looking for a refuge from the flow of life. To accept being part of this flow, not separate from it, is to be simple and connected to all of life. There is a sensation of letting go into that which is obvious yet resisted- this is all there is yet 'all' is everything and 'nothing'. It's a paradox, a mystery- knowing nothing and everything.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
I would describe it as above but add that the pain or frustration one experiences can't be quelled by choosing a 'better antidote'. This can only mask the symptoms. To experience life joyfully the question of what or who one is must be investigated. The answer is not difficult or intellectually demanding, it's utterly simple when we start to look directly. We really can start to see the 'wood for the trees'.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
There was no last bit. It has been a gradual process of illusion being pointed to like light being shone into dark or unseen corners. The process of accepting all sensation as not self or separate from the flow has been, and continues to be, the most significant aspect. Answering these questions illuminates the process, showing the unnecessary complication that mind can create.
6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?
Before seeing there was a search for 'something more' to add to the process. A hunger for a 'more acceptable answer' which corresponded to something 'spiritual' and 'other'. There was a desire to elevate the self from the mundane stuff of life.
The process of seeing, or acceptance, was more like an embrace of this 'mundane stuff' and seeing the illusion of judgment which created the sense of separateness.
The key difference is one of perception: 'In here' looking 'out there'. The simplicity of awareness/ energy being impersonal- not self/other- what a relief!
7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?
The above might be a typo 'in what ways has thing changed your life'.
This process has changed my life by replacing confusion or complication with simplicity. This means less compounded pain 'within and without'.
The impact is one of acceptance and freedom- the potential to dance with life's flow realising that all is part of that flow even the illusion of the flow being 'stuck or interrupted'. This is liberation...
8) what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?
That's fine, I'm happy for you to have your own views. I've investigated mine and found that views just add to the problem. Through your cult I've found something useful so thanks for that. This won't be the first time I've subscribed to something that had a 'sell by' date. This is how I've learnt so far. Thanks for not asking for money, that's usually a giveaway!
9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?
I really appreciate your time and patience. To be able to communicate such simple subtlety is skillful. It's a very difficult knowing where somebody is 'coming from' and it took a week before we started to really communicate (not long really).
There wasn't much contextualization so I looked around the LU website to get a sense of the 'local culture'. I got a sense we were following a script at times, when I accepted this I was able to accept the need to repeat things I'd said in earlier posts. There was a 'tipping point' at which you pointed out a particular unseen view which made the engagement vital and exciting.
I suspect you're in a different time zone so delay was inevitable. Calling you 'cosmiK' seemed a bit alienating for me at first (I used my own names), especially once we'd reached the 'tipping point' and communication was flowing.
It felt like a barrier to direct communication but perhaps it also created a sense of talking to 'nobody'... beyond speculation, gender or 'name and address'...
Above all heartfelt thanks to you!
love appicha
Re: Ready to be guided...
Hi Appicha,
Thanks for your responses. It will be now reviewed by other guides. Keep LOOKing and enjoying your wonderful absence :) Will be in touch shortly.
with Love.
Thanks for your responses. It will be now reviewed by other guides. Keep LOOKing and enjoying your wonderful absence :) Will be in touch shortly.
with Love.
Re: Ready to be guided...
Hi Appicha,
Just a quick clarification question
with Love.
Just a quick clarification question
The impact is one of acceptance and freedom- the potential to dance with life's flow realising that all is part of that flow even the illusion of the flow being 'stuck or interrupted'. This is liberation...
So when you say 'accepting the flow' and the 'potential to dance with life's flow', is there anyone or anything that can accept or deny that flow? is there anyone or anything that can choose to dance with life's flow?To accept being part of this flow, not separate from it, is to be simple and connected to all of life. There is a sensation of letting go into that which is obvious yet resisted- this is all there is yet 'all' is everything and 'nothing'. It's a paradox, a mystery- knowing nothing and everything.
with Love.
Re: Ready to be guided...
Hi cosmiK
You asked:
"So when you say 'accepting the flow' and the 'potential to dance with life's flow', is there anyone or anything that can accept or deny that flow? is there anyone or anything that can choose to dance with life's flow?"
I'll have to work at being able to articulate this!
There is nobody or anything accepting or denying or choosing: Resistance is seen as just another thought. This is experienced as 'clarity'- the open dimension of experience (life's flow) which I'm poetically describing as a dance. This is not a choice but a recognition of the irrisistable 'cosmik dance' of all experience.
That's more poetic description I'm afraid but it's just thought pointing out the empty nature of thought or the use of concepts to point to the non-conceptual, duh!
love appicha
You asked:
"So when you say 'accepting the flow' and the 'potential to dance with life's flow', is there anyone or anything that can accept or deny that flow? is there anyone or anything that can choose to dance with life's flow?"
I'll have to work at being able to articulate this!
There is nobody or anything accepting or denying or choosing: Resistance is seen as just another thought. This is experienced as 'clarity'- the open dimension of experience (life's flow) which I'm poetically describing as a dance. This is not a choice but a recognition of the irrisistable 'cosmik dance' of all experience.
That's more poetic description I'm afraid but it's just thought pointing out the empty nature of thought or the use of concepts to point to the non-conceptual, duh!
love appicha
Re: Ready to be guided...
wonderful - get back to you soon.
Re: Ready to be guided...
confirmed and good to go :)
will contact you private regarding Facebook.
will contact you private regarding Facebook.
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