Who wants to walk me through the process?

[mark_tywharton]

Honestly?

Not sure and I am not seeing it like that

Nervous system gives rise to sensation gives rise to action gives rise to thought gives rise to about me

Seems pretty real

There is an 'about me' that seems real

That is false?

No metaphors please

That "About Me" thought at the end of the process is false

[Damon Kamda]

Honestly?

Yes.

Not sure and I am not seeing it like that

That's why we're having this conversation, isn't it?

Nervous system gives rise to sensation gives rise to action gives rise to thought gives rise to about me

Yes.

Seems pretty real

That's because it is. Nervous system is real, sensation is real, action is real, thought is real. "Me", however, is not.

There is an 'about me' that seems real

Seems real, yet it is an assumption, nothing more.

That is false?

You tell me. What is the self? Is there one? You haven't answered me so far. So stop evading this simple question, and look at what is assumed to be YOU! Just one single moment of honest looking.

[mark_tywharton]

there is a process

there is not a thing

that's it?

you are giving me a headache

and I feel a bit sick

and next you are going to say "who is it who has a headache"?

right?

[Damon Kamda]

you are giving me a headache

and I feel a bit sick

and next you are going to say "who is it who has a headache"?

Yes I am.
Look at it Mark.

What "me" is giving what "you" a headache?
Sit down, stay quiet, slow down and look at how it actually works.

The occurence of a headache and the sensation of feeling sick are excuses for not looking at this; distractions. Just allow those sensations to be and honestly answer this:

You tell me. What is the self? Is there one? You haven't answered me so far. So stop evading this simple question, and look at what is assumed to be YOU! Just one single moment of honest looking.

[mark_tywharton]

Yes I am.
Look at it Mark.

Sorry, still can't see anything new, liberating or revealing

What "me" is giving what "you" a headache?
Sit down, stay quiet, slow down and look at how it actually works.

I went to bed. I wear headphones and listen to audiobooks when I sleep - I had some interesting dreams relating to this stuff. In the middle of the night I went to the bathroom and the light in there is a strange orange glow from a street lamp. I looked in a mirror and I looked a little like an Italian friend. On seeing my reflection I thought about him. The person I thought about is not the actual person, it is my notion of him. I could clearly see I saw this person as a mental construct. I hold an image of him on an internal mental screen.

Okay next part. I can clearly see I hold a mental image of myself on an internal mental screen.

I got this far a while ago. Tony Parsons asked me if this was an observer or a witness in one of his meetings and suggested this witness was also a mental construct.

I have had glimpses of that and I think I operate in life as if the mental construct is not true. Like a mirror, I wouldn't try and put the shoes in the mirror on my feet, they are not real. So I allow this thing to be and humour it.

And you are saying it is not there?

Not there at all?

Weird.

I sort of feel like a man walking down an alley way who thinks someone is following him and keeps turning around and they are not there it is just the echo of his own footsteps - then he thinks they are laughing from the shadows and it is the breeze blowing through an old tin can...

You tell me. What is the self? Is there one? You haven't answered me so far. So stop evading this simple question, and look at what is assumed to be YOU! Just one single moment of honest looking.

[/quote]

I would go with projection but it implies it is out there like my friend is apparently out there and I project my construct of what I think he is like onto him so they are separate - his physical form and my idea of him

While the ME that gets projected is apparently within

I can get into that concept much deeper but it will take a long time to type and you will probably skip over all of it and ask something else?

Ha

Okay I am still looking at the things the I is projecting and have not considered it is projecting itself?

Or, that there is no light to project anything and it is creating its own light?

Too metaphorical

I CAN feel something!

Something feels like something and I can think about it - it has a dull perplexed quality

Doh

I give up!

[mark_tywharton]

actually I don't give up

I am willing to pursue this to the point where it makes a difference

you say something about this is subtle and cannot be missed?

otherwise what is the point

this is going around in circles

[Damon Kamda]

actually I don't give up

Good to hear that, you're doing great so stay with this...

this is going around in circle

Yes it is, because you are not actually challenging the fundamental assumption, the core of the problem- that there is such a thing as you.

I went to bed. I wear headphones and listen to audiobooks when I sleep - I had some interesting dreams relating to this stuff. In the middle of the night I went to the bathroom and the light in there is a strange orange glow from a street lamp. I looked in a mirror and I looked a little like an Italian friend. On seeing my reflection I thought about him. The person I thought about is not the actual person, it is my notion of him. I could clearly see I saw this person as a mental construct. I hold an image of him on an internal mental screen.

Ok, this is good, yet you need to take it one step further.

The person I thought about is not the actual person

What is "the actual person"? Look at that. Is there such a thing...?

I can clearly see I hold a mental image of myself on an internal mental screen

No. It's all images. Images all the way down. You are a mental image. The image does not actually refer to a real thing. Every identity is always only an assumption.

Is this true? Check it out.

[mark_tywharton]

What is "the actual person"? Look at that. Is there such a thing...?

there is a physical form that comes to my house and eats food

No. It's all images. Images all the way down. You are a mental image. The image does not actually refer to a real thing. Every identity is always only an assumption.

if I clap my hands there is an image a sound and a sensation at the point in time space of the hands clapping

on one level of course it is a mental construct

on another level there are actual hands clapping

my perception of hands clapping and hands clapping are different

and one cannot exist without the other

oh I think I see what you are saying

one doesn't exist

the mental construct of hands clapping doesn't exist

it is a mental construct

without the mental construct how could I know hands clapping?

okay I get that too, I couldn't

and...

there goes the focus

what the hell are you on about that I haven't seen intellectually?

[Damon Kamda]

my perception of hands clapping and hands clapping are different

and one cannot exist without the other

oh I think I see what you are saying

one doesn't exist

the mental construct of hands clapping doesn't exist

it is a mental construct

No.

Both exist in this example: there is the actual clapping of the hands. And the mental representation of that, "Clapping of hands", where both "Clapping" and "hands" refer to actual events/things in reality. The clapping of the hands is real as an event. The mental construct is real as a construct and it is a correct and adequate representation of reality.

In the case of you, which is what we're look at here, it's different.

There is nothing in reality to which the mental construct of identity corresponds. Nothing.
The construct of "me" is real- as a construct, a fiction, but there is nothing to which it refers.

But don't take my word for this- check out if this is really so.

[mark_tywharton]

So

Clapping of hands can be experienced and the perception is valid

SELF can be experienced but the perception is not valid

It is a mental construct

Is this a bit like community

On this group there is a sense of community

But there is no real community it's a belief

Obviously "I" perceive community and "I" perceive "I"

Cannot get this

The SELF I perceive is not real

Would mean the I perceiving it is making a mistake about the perception

?

[mark_tywharton]

Reporting on the facts

I just had a bath

I thought about this and tried to find an I experiencing the hot water etc

Then I fell asleep

Somewhere in waking up something weird was going on

I don't think the I that I think is the source of experience is actually the source of experience

This I that I think is the I comes and goes

I already knew that

BUT

I am not sure I saw its position in the process before

and

I've lost it again

But I did spill water all over the floor getting out the bath

And I didn't get cross about that

I just looked at it and said "wow"

And I have no idea why!

Because that seems like a dumb thing to do now...

[Damon Kamda]

SELF can be experienced but the perception is not valid

No.
Self cannot be experienced.
There is no self. At all.

The SELF I perceive is not real

Would mean the I perceiving it is making a mistake about the perception

No.
There is no I.
There is no I perceiving a false self.

I'm not pointing to a difference between a real self and a false self.
I'm pointing to the observable absence of any kind of self.



You seem to be stuck at the identification with the witness, the observer. Positing that as self.
Look at that.
Is there anyone observing reality?
Does an observer exist? Or is this, yet again, another assumption?

[Damon Kamda]

I don't think the I that I think is the source of experience is actually the source of experience

Why is that?

This I that I think is the I comes and goes

Is there any I that does not come and go?

[mark_tywharton]

You seem to be stuck at the identification with the witness, the observer. Positing that as self.
Look at that.
Is there anyone observing reality?
Does an observer exist? Or is this, yet again, another assumption?

Okay, I guess so

Wherever I am stuck (if I am stuck) is where I have been for a good number of years

I am reviewing some stuff I have been writing over the past two years and there is a pattern of insight and seeking which is just in a loop

It seems I hit the AHA moment then just go right back into self

If it's not real and I know it's not real why would I do that?

What is this game?

Give me back my marbles!

[mark_tywharton]

Is there any I that does not come and go?

There is something that does not come or go that is always here even when I am sleeping

Is that not I?