Guide Available, Metta here.

[cosmiK]

Hey Tara,

To choose a thought... If i is a thought, a thought cant choose any other thought. But then to make a thought of lemon jelly or green grass, to then think of that... Is that chosen? Obviously not by an i thought, but then that just happens too i guess. They just randomly came up as did the walking thought. Not sure if im meant to 'pop' Q's in here, but tink i may have answered that in typing anyway..? :-)

When you say "that just happens too i guess". Don't guess. Be sure. Experiment and really check if you can choose a thought. So when you ask me, "is that chosen"? I will ask you...Is it? If so, who or what is choosing it? There are many thoughts, THOUGHTS that say "I made a thought of lemon jelly", then perhaps another THOUGHT that says "lemon jelly!", then perhaps another THOUGHT that says "I chose a thought!! ... did i?".
So really re-check this, and get back to me with what you find. You are doing serious investigation here miss Tara, so please don't come back to me with an 'I guess' :)

Ok, when walking, the thought of walking comes up. It wasn't chosen, it just happend when i got up to walk about.

In short - 1st answer Yes, 2nd answer No.

So... Are you certain about your answer for #2. Re-check and answer.

And.. if an "I" and a "me" and a "you" and a "Tara" is thought or a story (like we established below, read your previous responses for reference), then do thoughts walk? Can stories walk? CHECK and SEE.
Which is more accurate:
1) there is an Experiencing, a happening or stream of sensations, and we label it 'walking'
2) walking is happening
3) you are walking
4) tooth fairies are eating lemon jelly on green grass.

CHECK Tara!

Also, go for a walk in a park, or in the city, and LOOK & SEE. Which is more accurate?
1) Is there something or things behind all of these happenings?
2) Or is just happening spontaneously?

CHECK!

Look forward to 'your' next response :)

[cosmiK]

CORRECTION:
" So when you ask me, "is that chosen"? I will ask you...Is it? If so, who or what is choosing it? There are many thoughts, THOUGHTS that say "I made a thought of lemon jelly"
What I meant to say for that first THOUGHT is "I'm going to think a thought of lemon jelly"

Hopefully that is clear, let me know if it isn't.

[Tara]

Hi Neil,

And.. if an "I" and a "me" and a "you" and a "Tara" is thought or a story (like we established below, read your previous responses for reference), then do thoughts walk? Can stories walk? CHECK and SEE.
Which is more accurate:
1) there is an Experiencing, a happening or stream of sensations, and we label it 'walking'
2) walking is happening
3) you are walking
4) tooth fairies are eating lemon jelly on green grass.

Number 1 is more acurate.

When you say "that just happens too i guess". Don't guess. Be sure. Experiment and really check if you can choose a thought. So when you ask me, "is that chosen"? I will ask you...Is it? If so, who or what is choosing it? There are many thoughts, THOUGHTS that say "I made a thought of lemon jelly", then perhaps another THOUGHT that says "lemon jelly!", then perhaps another THOUGHT that says "I chose a thought!! ... did i?".
So really re-check this, and get back to me with what you find. You are doing serious investigation here miss Tara, so please don't come back to me with an 'I guess' :)

No thoughts are chosen.

Also, go for a walk in a park, or in the city, and LOOK & SEE. Which is more accurate?
1) Is there something or things behind all of these happenings?
2) Or is just happening spontaneously?

Well there's an awareness that all these things are happening to cretae the experience of walking, but im not sure that the aware is behind the walking.

Maybe i have mis-understood....

1) Is there something or things behind all of these happenings?

Do you mean behind like overseeing or behing as in like a cause??

Tara :)

[cosmiK]

Hey Tara,

I don't think you have misunderstood at all. I believe my wording was not that great. What I meant to ask was.
While walking and looking out in to the sprawling scene (park, city, etc).
1) is there a doer or doers behind all of this experiencing?
2) is it just happening spontaneously?

And when you say there is an Awareness. Is this awareness is anyway separate from anything else?

Is there a separate self?

[Tara]

While walking and looking out in to the sprawling scene (park, city, etc).
1) is there a doer or doers behind all of this experiencing?
2) is it just happening spontaneously?

It just happening.... I cant't see a doer(s)

[Tara]

And when you say there is an Awareness. Is this awareness is anyway separate from anything else?

Is there a separate self?

Seperate self.......... sepertae from other people in the street? Sepetrate from objects that are passed in the street ie: bill boards, bike stand etc??

[cosmiK]

you skipped this question:
- And when you say there is an Awareness. Is this awareness is anyway separate from anything else?

Yes... is there a separate self anywhere, in relation to anyone or anything or any tooth fairy anywhere? Is there any separate at all apart from THOUGHTS about it?

Where are you in your investigation now Tara?

[Tara]

- And when you say there is an Awareness. Is this awareness is anyway separate from anything else?

This question feels like alot to try and process in the brain!! :/ The answer is probably really simple though.

.... No.

Yes... is there a separate self anywhere, in relation to anyone or anything or any tooth fairy anywhere? Is there any separate at all apart from THOUGHTS about it?

No.

Where are you in your investigation now Tara?

Very much noticing thoughts and 'nipping them in the bud' before they spiral out of control. I see the world as a one big thing moving and happening... buzzing, but still there is feeling of seperateness.

Picking things apart as we have been, makes sense, but its not the automatic response or feeling to get to the answers that we have when just milling through the day..... I think that being more mindful of what is going on needs to be done.

Will look forward to your reply, to pick further at what has just been written. :)

[cosmiK]

'nipping them in the bud' before they spiral out of control

how is this done? who nips thoughts? and how do thoughts get out of control?

but still there is feeling of seperateness.

Okay, so let's look at this. Is this feeling felt by anyone? Is it arising to anything?

I think that being more mindful of what is going on needs to be done.

Are there any Expectations about where this process should be going? what should be changing? what you need to do more?

---

So, I think we've covered many little checks and experiments that you can carry out throughout the day (they all boil down to Simple LOOKING. Is there an Experiencer apart from the Experience, and if there is, is that just part of the Experience itself divided by some thought?). So... let's talk heart to heart. What's going on? What is there you are not seeing? Why do you feel your 'separate'? Something is stirring underneath, let's have it out Tara. Speak from Truth.

[Tara]

'nipping them in the bud' before they spiral out of control
how is this done? who nips thoughts? and how do thoughts get out of control?

Watching thoughts come; they can get out of control if not watched, they will chatter on about things that have not happended, or more importantly, not happening.

Okay, so let's look at this. Is this feeling felt by anyone? Is it arising to anything?

It isnt felt by any One and doesn't arise to any One.

Are there any Expectations about where this process should be going? what should be changing? what you need to do more?

No expectations, not now. I dont know what to expect. I dont know if there is any thing to change, i cant see that there is. I cant change anything, it will just happen. Metta expalined that an expectation was just a thought.

Is there an Experiencer apart from the Experience, and if there is, is that just part of the Experience itself divided by some thought?)

No, it all experience. All of it!

What's going on? What is there you are not seeing? Why do you feel your 'separate'? Something is stirring underneath, let's have it out Tara

The feeling of seperateness is not as strong as it was say a year ago, but on the other hand the seperateness feels magnified since looking into it.
Are things like preference, feeling, emotion etc I thoughts. THOUGHTS? is there anyway things are right or wrong? Using the senses exercise, leaves nothing but experience. Its like everything that ever was is now being nothing.....

[cosmiK]

Hey Tara,

Watching thoughts come; they can get out of control if not watched, they will chatter on about things that have not happended, or more importantly, not happening.

Who is watching thoughts? :)

The feeling of seperateness is not as strong as it was say a year ago, but on the other hand the seperateness feels magnified since looking into it.

Yes, feelings of separateness and other feelings may yet remain even after seeing no-self. Regardless, just keep checking to see if these feelings arise to anyone, or are just arising spontaneously?

Are things like preference, feeling, emotion etc I thoughts. THOUGHTS? is there anyway things are right or wrong? Using the senses exercise, leaves nothing but experience. Its like everything that ever was is now being nothing.....

Well, Life is Life, and it continues to flow. This process doesn't have to reduce anything to nothing, it is just about seeing that there is no separate entity, individual, watcher, chooser, agent or doer in any way. It isn't about changing anything, it's just about deeply looking in to our Experience, in to Life, and seeing that there is no separate "you" there to do anything.

We have done many processes, and I have given you many ways to check, so I think you are good in that sense. It also seems like you have gotten really good at breaking down everything in to Experience to see that there is no separate Experiencer... great. So let's drop all of that. Stop looking for a separate 'you/i'. It simply isn't there as we have tested. What is there? What is going on? Talk to me.

[Tara]

Hey neil, Using a phone today, so no quote function.

Answer to first Q: its not a who that watches thought, its an awareness that i cant explain that is aware the thoughts are happening.

Q under the last thing you quoted from my previous post: well a whole load of experiences is what seems to b happening... Its going to be a case of taking time in each moment to break down whats going on and see each experience for what they are. Its nice to feel a sense of experience rather than a 'oh its happening to me'. Practicing using the senses and breaking down will enforce the new way of seeing things. :-)

[cosmiK]

Tara,

Answer to first Q: its not a who that watches thought, its an awareness that i cant explain that is aware the thoughts are happening.

Great... as you may have already been feeling, there is this sense of Awareness, Presence, Being, Aliveness... whatever you may want to call it. It is important to check if this sense of aliveness is labelled "i"... is it "me"? is it "Tara"? This sense of self is subtly identified with, yet, we must look in to it as see if it is personal? if so... where is this person or claimant?

Q under the last thing you quoted from my previous post: well a whole load of experiences is what seems to b happening... Its going to be a case of taking time in each moment to break down whats going on and see each experience for what they are. Its nice to feel a sense of experience rather than a 'oh its happening to me'. Practicing using the senses and breaking down will enforce the new way of seeing things. :-)

Great Tara... I think all the exercises of seeing that we have covered have really shown you ways of disecting and taking apart Experience to really show you time and time again... that there is no separate self. No matter where you look, you can never find it, because it simple does not exist. There are the 6 sense streams, and there seems to be this aliveness, or sense of being that may be referred to as "me", but if we look, we can never find a separate self, a "me". Good... so definitely use all of your energy to investigate any claims of selfhood/doership...

BUT...

I believe you are now aware that there is no self, no matter where or how hard you look. It is an illusion, and simply DOES NOT EXIST. So when you feel ready, just Relax in to the moment, let go, inhabit your senses, drop all of the strategies that we have used, and simply ask... If there is no separate self, then what is there? Gently look at every moment... If there is no me, then what is there?

[Tara]

Hi!

Combing reply to your top and bottom paragrahs/ Q's: its an everything. There isn't a personal claimant and its that everything thats there when relaxed into the moment. Its connectable! Even with things like tables and chairs; when the everything is, it IS everything. This does take some real ironing out of this part of the mind, but once its de-creased and nicely ironed, it becomes everything.

There is a seperate feeling more so with objects, but that becoming everything does jus that! Its just not the automatic response here yet...

[cosmiK]

Tara,

There isn't a personal claimant and its that everything thats there when relaxed into the moment.

Even when 'relaxed in the moment' or not... is it personal, is there a claimant? will there EVER be? was there EVER?

This does take some real ironing out of this part of the mind, but once its de-creased and nicely ironed, it becomes everything.

Ironed, not-ironed, creased or de-creased... is there EVER any separation, apart from a THOUGHT?

What do you mean by 'mind'? Isn't 'mind' just a label given to a stream of thoughts and perhaps other sensations?

There is a separate feeling more so with objects, but that becoming everything does jus that! Its just not the automatic response here yet...

Regardless of separate feelings, or not, is there EVER any separation, apart from a THOUGHT?

Are you trying to make a response automatic? If some responses are not automatic, and they take effort... then who is making the effort?

Regardless of responses being automatic, or effort being made to iron out 'minds'.... do you see that there is noone doing any of this? noone observing any of this? noone to iron out Experience? noone to make the effort?

Your still trying... WHAT is trying? Do you see that it is just a sensations and just a thought?

There is no YOU Tara:) Is it True?