The Gate

Hi Cam
Just a quick note that although almost every day, I m pondering over the process or occasionally reading other posts, I don't post every day mainly because I dont have anything new to add, and i dont want to keep repeating myself with the same rants.
Btw watched the video, interesting but contradictory..will share my views, and get back to you soon.
Regards
Arora

Hi Cam

So if thoughts appear spontaneously is there a "You or Self" responsible for all this??

it appears that it may not be 'I' that's responsible for type of thoughts that arise, but there is accumulated experience and a 'personality' that is responsible for this.
This 'I' seems to escape me, whenever I try to catch it :)
I must add that this analysis of thoughts or attempt to catch it seems to be in slight retrospect, after the thought has occurred, and I dont seem to be able to do it as the thoughts happen.
There is also this contradictory thought process going on where sometimes the attempt is to let this happen on its own, and sometimes it seems slack not to be working on it more intensely.

Regards
Arora

Hello Arora...

it appears that it may not be 'I' that's responsible for type of thoughts that arise, but there is accumulated experience and a 'personality' that is responsible for this.

Right, because "I" is merely a thought or projection of the mind, spurred from the conditioning and stories picked up from ones youth...

This 'I' seems to escape me, whenever I try to catch it :)
I must add that this analysis of thoughts or attempt to catch it seems to be in slight retrospect, after the thought has occurred, and I dont seem to be able to do it as the thoughts happen.

Take the "Movie scenario" for instance...LOOK don't think. Let the thoughts play out in front of you, and try to observe what's behind these thoughts...This isn't about thinking, it's about looking. Setting aside beliefs and seeing the truth of where all this is coming from.

You cannot “stop thinking” that's not possible, however, you are engaged in the thinking process instead of LOOKing. Thinking is what snaps you out of LOOKing.

There is also this contradictory thought process going on where sometimes the attempt is to let this happen on its own, and sometimes it seems slack not to be working on it more intensely

Yup, "The Self" wants to lull you into complacency, that way it can continue to spin in the background again unchallenged, Yet I guarantee you that these feelings will persist until it's seen and understood for the illusion that it is...

Pick a thought...Any thought, that you FEEL is "you" ....Now follow it back to the place you think (in your mind) where 'IT' resides....What's there??

Hi Cam
Pretty much same story..sometimes it seems to make sense..listening to a non-dual teacher sort of triggers it but generally no further breakthroughs.
I realize there are gaps between my posts, which is mainly because i feel there may not be anything to say. Is that ok with you i.e. to get back to you if I have a strong query or anything to comments; or would you recommend some rant on more regular basis, even though it seems insignificant to me?
Much regards
Arora

Hello Arora...

I realize there are gaps between my posts, which is mainly because i feel there may not be anything to say. Is that ok with you i.e. to get back to you if I have a strong query or anything to comments; or would you recommend some rant on more regular basis, even though it seems insignificant to me?

If you're not making any head way then why? ...Ask your self this honestly and tell me why...Skepticism?
Is the mind is distracting you?....

Try and take some time and read back on our thread and see if anything stands out and tell me what pops into your head.....Lets challenge this together.

As far as ranting go's if it feels true, then let it rip! We need to get this stuff out and Inqure at what"s behind all this and keeping you from moving closer to the gate...

I have asked some questions that you did'nt answer for what ever reason...maybe it was understood and considered unimportant to respond?? None the less we need to have a bit more to go on, BUT if you've got nothing I understand..

Outside of a thought, belief, or memory, where or what is Arora??

Hi Cam
I think I needed a bit of push..thanks for that...seems to be how my mechanism works..always needing that extra push :)

If you're not making any head way then why? ...Ask your self this honestly and tell me why...Skepticism?
Is the mind is distracting you?....

I pondered over this, and although not I am not doing this consciously, I think I can put it down to maybe some degree of skepticism, some procrastination, but mainly mixed thoughts like "ah i know this already", or "this doesnt do it for me" or "i probably need something more" Or sometimes lack of enough space in my day to allow such free movement of looking. Even when I am writing this, I am realizing how these just sound like excuses :) So i am unsure if there might be more to the real cause.

I have asked some questions that you did'nt answer for what ever reason...maybe it was understood and considered unimportant to respond?? None the less we need to have a bit more to go on, BUT if you've got nothing I understand..

I see that most of your questions that weren't answered were related to 'going behind thoughts and seeing who/what is there' or 'who really is I without tags and labels'. When i read those, I would ponder briefly and although not deliberately, but mental process would go something like this- "ah, the ultimate pointing question! I know what this is supposed to do, but it doesn't do that final aha for me, so i might wait for the next thing or something else"

Outside of a thought, belief, or memory, where or what is Arora??

Sitting with this, i wrote and deleted a few times because most answers seem to be coming from mind, answers like- background to thoughts, or energy showing up as thoughts...my experience of it is quite muddled and unsure, there doesn't seem to be a concrete answer that I could put down with any degree of surety.
It almost seems like a question that I don't know what to do with, or how to look at.

Regards and season's greetings
Arora

Hello and Seasons greetings my friend...

although not I am not doing this consciously, I think I can put it down to maybe some degree of skepticism, some procrastination,

sometimes lack of enough space in my day to allow such free movement of looking.

All this takes is one good look, "The Self" and conditioning from childhood are keeping you from seeing through these thoughts because once you do the game is over, or shall we say the curtain (of thoughts) is opened and the truth is revealed...
The thing you need to keep in mind is there are two realms...Reality in which you interact with direct experience and the Realm within your mind...These two realms cannot intermingle Ever.
The same as for instance; Thinking about being thirsty and drinking a glass of water... You can think about it all day, but until you physically grab a glass and drink it your body will never be quenched.

"ah, the ultimate pointing question! I know what this is supposed to do, but it doesn't do that final aha for me, so i might wait for the next thing or something else"

This isn't about intellect or inquiry at this point it's about LOOKing...Punching through thought, recognizing and seeing the "origin" of thought itself...It doesn't matter what the thoughts are; Though the more disturbing thoughts are more profound once it's seen.
Remember thoughts are just baggage... 90% of thought is thought's about thought, the other 10% is used throughout your day in a useful manner...

Sitting with this, i wrote and deleted a few times because most answers seem to be coming from mind, answers like- background to thoughts, or energy showing up as thoughts...

energy showing up as thoughts..

Energy is a good guess...But guessing isn't LOOKing you need to see this for yourself....GO THERE!
Where is "it" that they emerge and then disappear to?? See this without a doubt, and your through.

It almost seems like a question that I don't know what to do with, or how to look at.

LOOK introspectively...ponder... Daydream, but don't think...Thinking interrupts looking...

Where's all this coming from??
Hang in there it's simpler than you can think ;^)

Happy Holiday's from my family to yours...Wishing you a Happy and Healthy 2013!!

hi Cam

hope you have been well.

Where is "it" that they emerge and then disappear to??

I stayed and sat with this nearly every day, made it my mantra keeping it at the back of my mind...some of the conclusions are- sometimes there is just a flood of thoughts and it takes a bit before there is a separation from that stream to be able to 'see'. It still seems that thoughts appear like a bubble, there is a knowing as they appear and then the mind/ another thought recalls straight after that thought (and of course there is a knowing of that too, but i seem to tangle myself up at this point). Another seeing is that sometimes very quickly, as soon as a thought appears, mind/body follows that (e.g. sit straight, or breathe deeper) and then there is a knowing, in retrospect of that thought as just a thought. So that is where I appear to be wandering at the moment..
Cam, it appears that when I am trying to 'look' , it is still from vantage point of mind, and if I try to see how I am still awareness or whatever similar, it doesn't succeed. So there will have to be a shift in vantage point of looking to be able to 'see' this, to live this..and that shift might occur by looking or perhaps not under my control?
many thanks again for your guidance
Arora

Hello Arora...

sometimes there is just a flood of thoughts and it takes a bit before there is a separation from that stream to be able to 'see'. It still seems that thoughts appear like a bubble

Right! Like pulses of energy...Depending on the circumstances, this flood of thought is a lot like chatter, but what you're looking for is a quite moment where the distractions are at somewhat a minimum, and LOOK at where these bubbles are coming from, or for that matter what's supporting or creating/driving these thoughts... Believe it or not once it's confirmed in your mind what's behind all this; The noise will naturally quite on it's own because attention is no longer focused as it once was...

there is a knowing as they appear and then the mind/ another thought recalls straight after that thought

Yup, without attention payed or other thoughts morphing from others...These thoughts need energy to survive...By seeing the truth behind these thoughts you're cutting the connection behind them...A weird metaphore for this is when during the movie "The wizard of Oz" when Dorothy pulls back the curtain to expose the wizard for what he really was...from then on the illusion was exposed for was it was Nothing.

Another seeing is that sometimes very quickly, as soon as a thought appears, mind/body follows

The body is the slave to the mind, whether consciously or unconsciously, whether positive or negative the body will follow...

So there will have to be a shift in vantage point of looking to be able to 'see' this, to live this..and that shift might occur by looking or perhaps not under my control?

Not sure, what you mean by "vantage point" but if it takes a shift in how you're seeing by All means try it. There are others that see this as a shift in perception, and recognizing the emptiness from which they come...

Cam, it appears that when I am trying to 'look' , it is still from vantage point of mind and if I try to see how I am still awareness or whatever similar, it doesn't succeed.

What we are looking for...Is what is looking.

Pick a thought...Any thought, that you FEEL is "you" ....Now follow it back to anyplace you think (in your mind) where 'IT' resides....What's there??

Hi Cam

Had a busy week, and struggled to find time and place to be less distracted to keep looking, However I do see that more I look , sharper the perception becomes.

LOOK at where these bubbles are coming from, or for that matter what's supporting or creating/driving these thoughts.

I note that this has been your main query question and whatever time I have spent with it I have failed so far to get to the essence that you are pointing to..and it can get a bit frustrating as well.

What we are looking for...Is what is looking.

This blew my mind away when I read it first time..wow..what you are looking for ..is what is looking...stopped my mind in its tracks and then there is again that brick wall that I hit where there is no further 'seeing' after that.

Pick a thought...Any thought, that you FEEL is "you" ....Now follow it back to anyplace you think (in your mind) where 'IT' resides....What's there??

In response to looking, my picture so far is..Most of the thoughts get followed immediately before they are seen as mere thoughts and then a second or so later mind realises that was another thought. Occasionally mind is separate from a thought where it is seen rather early as a thought instead of following it and then there is just blankness of mind..kind of no thoughts for a little while; this seeing of thoughts as thoughts appears to stop them in their tracks rather than seeing 'origin' or 'residing place' of thoughts. So still not able to get to the place where your question pointing to..but I appreciate your persistence with this and gonna try to match mine with yours and keep looking.
Regards
Arora

Hello Arora...

LOOK at where these bubbles are coming from, or for that matter what's supporting or creating/driving these thoughts.

I note that this has been your main query question and whatever time I have spent with it I have failed so far to get to the essence that you are pointing to..and it can get a bit frustrating as well.

there is just blankness of mind...

BAMM!! There in the blankness....That's what I'm point at!!....The life force, THAT is the real you, not a thought or memory or a belief, it's just life itself!!

What we are looking for...Is what is looking.

Again it's just life!! :^)

In seeing the truth...THAT is what severs the mental connection with the illusion of thought or the illusion of " I ".
Like you said above "The blankness" or what we call the "void" is everything and yet nothing...The energy of life itself... It's as simple as that...."You" are not your thoughts.

Without a self, (The thought.) would daily living be different than it is now?

Hi Cam

BAMM!! There in the blankness....That's what I'm point at!!

I must clarify that I probably meant it a bit differently..in the meaning that there is just stopping of thoughts for a brief while, and I am kind of just sitting there blinking my eyes rather than looking for origin of thoughts..I don't think this is the 'deeper inner blankness' that you might be pointing to. So I might have to take a step back rather than moving ahead to your question of daily living without a 'self'

Continuing with looking I feel the difference could be that in my case it is the mind that is doing the looking and thus the 'stopping' or not getting anywhere, whereas your pointing is probably asking the deeper self (or no-self) to do the looking to find itself..perhaps... Could it also be that it is just still going at the mind level but has the potential of reaching beyond the mind level continuing looking by the mind? Or I am just getting too wordy now :S ?

On another note, if you call it some progress, i found that with a bit of regular looking, I can feel this going to body level from head level and I feel it more lower in the body, my chest or gut area rather than just in the head.
Thanks heaps and Regards
Arora

Hey Arora...

BAMM!! There in the blankness....That's what I'm point at!!

I must clarify that I probably meant it a bit differently..in the meaning that there is just stopping of thoughts for a brief while, and I am kind of just sitting there blinking my eyes rather than looking for origin of thoughts.

Don't take this personally..."That"...that cannot be simpler "is" what's looking...

These thoughts wouldn't exist (in your mind) if they didn't have the life force and consciousness to support them...

Kinda like the sky analogy...The clouds need the sky to exist; yet the clouds don't attach themselves to the sky they just appear float around, and then disappear...

Arora, it's just life! The force that every living thing must have to exist temporarily on this planet...Strip away
everything else and what's left?......LIFE that's all!!

There's no you. You are literally the imagination of yourself!!

On another note, if you call it some progress, i found that with a bit of regular looking, I can feel this going to body level from head level and I feel it more lower in the body, my chest or gut area rather than just in the head.

This is the mind/body connection...The body is the slave to the mind, if you're upset or having negative feelings, the body perceives these as threats and reacts accordingly...This is why the connection to thought must be broken, by seeing the fact these illusions are projections from nothing THAT is where the mind awakens from delusion.

Without the thoughts, stories or roles that Arora plays...Does Arora exist?

Hey Arora...

BAMM!! There in the blankness....That's what I'm point at!!

I must clarify that I probably meant it a bit differently..in the meaning that there is just stopping of thoughts for a brief while, and I am kind of just sitting there blinking my eyes rather than looking for origin of thoughts.

Don't take this personally..."That"...that cannot be simpler "is" what's looking...

These thoughts wouldn't exist (in your mind) if they didn't have the life force and consciousness to support them...

Kinda like the sky analogy...The clouds need the sky to exist; yet the clouds don't attach themselves to the sky they just appear float around, and then disappear...

Arora, it's just life! The force that every living thing must have to exist temporarily on this planet...Strip away
everything else and what's left?......LIFE that's all!!

There's no you. You are literally the imagination of yourself!!

On another note, if you call it some progress, i found that with a bit of regular looking, I can feel this going to body level from head level and I feel it more lower in the body, my chest or gut area rather than just in the head.

This is the mind/body connection...The body is the slave to the mind, if you're upset or having negative feelings, the body perceives these as threats and reacts accordingly...This is why the connection to thought must be broken, by seeing the fact these illusions are projections from nothing THAT is where the mind awakens from delusion.

Without the thoughts, stories or roles that Arora plays...Does Arora exist?

Hi Cam

Lately, this looking has been sort of obsession for me..anytime any bit of spare time, I have been engaged in it..looking at your questions of what is there to get upset, or what is behind the thoughts, and looking for 'presence-awareness' as it has been described as too..there is a sense that I am getting it, getting closer but not there yet.
Most of the times this looking results in slipping out of thoughts and somehow feeling of awareness in the body..and thats where it usually ends..I'm curious to see how it is unfolding.

Without the thoughts, stories or roles that Arora plays...Does Arora exist?

'Sandeep Arora' doesnt seem to be found when I look for it..although there is a sensation of I doing the looking that I can not deny.

Regards dear friend
Arora