The Gate

Hi, john
"Do you see that saying that the body and sensations appear in this 'space' is far closer to direct experiential evidence than saying that the 'space' appears in the body?"
Yes, I see that first part is more real from my point of view. But at the same time I "feel" that this space is somehow attached to the body, i dont know how o explain it. I am not into my body but I am not out of my boy either. Right now I don know if I am in or out or both.
I haveto stop and observe.

hi Manuel

About the question of Does the space have a center? I would say no, but to be honest there is somehow the thought or something ingrained that make me feel like it is a center (My attention, my experience...) I must say I dont experience this through the senses, it is more thought stuff, but however there is this sensation, this kind of feeling that there is a me which is a center, though it is created by thoughts, it is "here" somehow.

Yes it's here just like all thoughts are here, but as you've seen, direct experiential evidence does not confirm that thought.

If I told you there is no center in experience, I d be saying there is no me, and that is something "intellectual" but not really experienced.

No, you would only be saying that there is no center, and you would be saying that there is no PERSONAL "me", but you wouldn't be denying the experience of the reading of this sentence. To deny a "person" or a "personal I" is NOT to deny existence.

It's clear that there is awareness of "this" (universe of thought, emotion, sensations, and experiences) but it's also clear that there is absolutely no separation between "this" and the awareness of it. So "this" seems to be aware of itself, but what in the direct experience of "this" (aside from thought) says that it's "personal"?

When I observe, there is awareness but though there seems to be a me, a center, I cant tell what it is or where.

So really then you're saying that you can't find this center. What is it that makes it "seem" like there is center? Is it anything other than thought?

And remember that you've already discovered that you're not the thinker of thoughts.

But at the same time I "feel" that this space is somehow attached to the body, i dont know how to explain it.

It's important that you look carefully at what it is that makes you "feel" that this space is somehow attached to the body.

Is it not the other way around? Doesn't it seem that the body is often "attached" to the space rather than the space being attached to the body.

I am not into my body but I am not out of my body either. Right now I don know if I am in or out or both.

What does direct experiential evidence say? Does the body seem to be in the "space" or does the space seem to be in the body? Remember to only trust direct evidence.

Are "you" the space or the body?

Hi, John

In direct experience, the body seems to be attached to the space. But among all the things appearing in this space, the body seems to have a particular importance, it doesnt have the same importance the body than the tree. The body seems to be more ME. I think the mind has a lot to do with this impression.
About the ME being a thought, I have a problem because thoughts come and go but the sensation of a me seems to be more permanent, more ingrained than other thoughts, so I have the feeling that one thing is the Me and another different thing is the rest of the thoughts. But perhaps the Me thought is a deeper thought, but a thought at the end

" but what in the direct experience of "this" (aside from thought) says that it's "personal"?" Good question, i think there is a "feeling" of having certain control of life, for instanc the possibility of doing this or that or choosing this or that, but I admit the possibility of that being an illusion, I think it is an illusion, but it is not something clearly seen.

Are yiu the space or the body? It is a difficult question, and it is in my mind since i have read it. The space seems to be something too abstract to be me, I feel more identified with the body, but i dont know, John.

Hi Manuel

In direct experience, the body seems to be attached to the space.

Well I would say that it appears in this 'space' often, but it is not ALWAYS attached to the space. There are many times that the body is not in the 'space'. During a movie, for example, there is sometimes just the movie in the 'space', and the body only appears when a thought appears about the body or the "I".

But among all the things appearing in this space, the body seems to have a particular importance, it doesn't have the same importance the body than the tree.

Yes, the body does seem to have a particular importance. Just like light seems to have a particular importance, and happiness seems to have a particular importance, within thought, but this 'space' isn't affected by the thoughts, sensations, and perceptions that show up in it. It just remains the 'space' that stuff shows up in.

The body seems to be more ME. I think the mind has a lot to do with this impression.

Yes, it's because thought says that the 'space' is in a body. But what does direct experience tell you?

Thought says many things, but when checked against direct experiential evidence you've discovered that much of it does not correlate with direct experience.

About the ME being a thought, I have a problem because thoughts come and go but the sensation of a me seems to be more permanent, more ingrained than other thoughts, so I have the feeling that one thing is the Me and another different thing is the rest of the thoughts. But perhaps the Me thought is a deeper thought, but a thought at the end

Yes thoughts come and go, but thought has created a centre for itself, so almost every thought refers to this "thought up" centre. So therefore, even though thoughts come and go, there are always thoughts there, and they are ALWAYS referring back to their self-created centre.

It is this self-referencing nature of thought that creates the "deep" sense of the "I" (thought up center).

"but what in the direct experience of "this" (aside from thought) says that it's "personal"?"

Good question, i think there is a "feeling" of having certain control of life, for instanc the possibility of doing this or that or choosing this or that, but I admit the possibility of that being an illusion, I think it is an illusion, but it is not something clearly seen.

Take a look at that free will experiment again if you want to check it for yourself.

Are yiu the space or the body? It is a difficult question, and it is in my mind since i have read it. The space seems to be something too abstract to be me, I feel more identified with the body, but i dont know, John.

When you said in your earlier post: "The reflection is an image,a measurable and limited thing and I dont perceive myself that way, but as a space", the 'space' you are talking about just "this" that is.

When I say "this" that is, I mean that there is awareness of this stuff that shows up, and the stuff that shows up is completely and utterly inseparable from the awareness of it (in the same way that a thought can't be separated from the awareness of it). So "this" 'space' that is full of thoughts, emotions, perceptions, people, and doing and EVERYTHING, is aware of itself.

If you are not the thinker of thoughts, but rather the 'space' in which they show up, then what is this "I" that identifies with a body?

Hi, John
I dont know for sure what is this I. It is a thought, but I havent discovered that in my experience. I didnt see it. Awareness is here, yes. I try o identify myself with this space, but the feeling that space is just space and someway comes out of me, is stronger. I cant grasp when you talk about awareness is aware of itself. Thoghts show up saying this is impossible for you, you dont have enough willpower, you are too coward...
I dont know, perhaps i am not patient enough
I think i cannot answer the question of what is this I identified with the body

Hi Manuel

Hi, John
I dont know for sure what is this I. It is a thought, but I havent discovered that in my experience. I didnt see it. Awareness is here, yes. I cant grasp when you talk about awareness is aware of itself.

And ALL the stuff that awareness is aware of is COMPLETELY inseparable from the awareness, in the same way that a thought is inseparable from the awareness of it. So "this" (emotions, thoughts, sensations, perceptions, people, chairs, etc, etc) that appears here (as ONE indivisible appearance) is aware of itself.

If awareness and "this" are inseparably ONE, and you are "this", and you are aware, then "this" is aware of itself.

I try to identify myself with this space, but the feeling that space is just space and someway comes out of me, is stronger. Thoghts show up saying this is impossible for you, you dont have enough willpower, you are too coward...

But these are thoughts that are not YOURS. Are you the thinker of thoughts?

These are just more thoughts that are appearing in "this". The thoughts say "Manuel is just a person, so Manuel can't be 'this' in it's indivisible entirety". And they are right. Manuel is just something showing up in this like trees, thoughts, emotion, and so on. Thought says that you are Manuel, but thought is just projecting it's self-created centre onto Manuel. You are not Manuel.

You are ALREADY "this", it's only thought that says you are not. You don't have to try to identify with "this" because you are never not "this".

I dont know, perhaps i am not patient enough

That is just another thought showing up in "this" that is already aware of itself. It is aware of the thought "I am not patient enough", showing up in it.

I think i cannot answer the question of what is this I identified with the body

Ok. You've discovered that you're not the thinker of thoughts, and you've discovered that sometimes the body doesn't show up in this "space", so what is the "I" that is trying to "identify with this space"?

Is there an "I" that is doing anything, or are there just thoughts about an "I" doing something? Confirm your reply with direct experiential evidence.

Hi, John sorry for the delay but I was ill. Some virus affected my stomach and the fever was high. now i am a bit better. I dont have much more to tell you except that there is an increasing feeling of dissatisfaction with everything. I dnt ejoy life. Life is full of problems and this I is teeling me to protect myself from the outside. Thee seems to be no advance at all. i keep observing toughts, but there is tiredness and headache. It is like trying to solve a problem of high Maths withaut having any idea of Maths. it seems to be beyond my possibilities.
Sorry I have noting more o tell you. Perhaps I am not working hard enough.

Hi Manuel

Hi, John sorry for the delay but I was ill. Some virus affected my stomach and the fever was high. now i am a bit better. I dont have much more to tell you except that there is an increasing feeling of dissatisfaction with everything. I dnt ejoy life. Life is full of problems and this I is teeling me to protect myself from the outside. Thee seems to be no advance at all. i keep observing toughts, but there is tiredness and headache. It is like trying to solve a problem of high Maths withaut having any idea of Maths. it seems to be beyond my possibilities.
Sorry I have noting more o tell you. Perhaps I am not working hard enough.

Sorry to hear that you were sick.

The reason why you're having difficulty is because you are allowing thought too much room in your 'seeing'.

None of these questions are difficult. The only difficulty is that thought covers up the truth. All you're being asked is to describe your own direct experience, and then to look at what the evidence says.

Remember that you are shaking thought's self-created centre here. You must expect that thoughts will be all over the place when you do that. Just remain true to direct experiential evidence and everything will become clear. Trust the process.

Please just try your best to answer the two questions that I asked you again. We'll work with whatever your answera are. Please re-read the whole thread and see what you have said about your own direct experience, to get back on track, because you've been away for so long.

Here are the questions again:

Ok. You've discovered that you're not the thinker of thoughts, and you've discovered that sometimes the body doesn't show up in this "space", so what is the "I" that is trying to "identify with this space"?

Is there an "I" that is doing anything, or are there just thoughts about an "I" doing something? Confirm your reply with direct experiential evidence.

Hi, John
You say the questions are easy, perhaps but I find it difficult to answer them pittng the thoughts aside. I think there are some thoughts so rooted that the I seems to be inherent. I tru to put thoghts aside but when I thing I get it, a tought appear and I dont know if I imagining how would it be to have no thoughts or an I but I think I am imagining it. How difficult seems to me. Do you think it is easy? I dont know what else to ell you. i try to observe during my work or my spare time what is the me, but I cant find an answer from direct experience. Things seem to be as always. The world of well known reality

Hi Manuel

Hi, John
You say the questions are easy, perhaps but I find it difficult to answer them pittng the thoughts aside. I think there are some thoughts so rooted that the I seems to be inherent. I tru to put thoghts aside but when I thing I get it, a tought appear and I dont know if I imagining how would it be to have no thoughts or an I but I think I am imagining it.

You've just described how thought covers up the truth.

I can't imagine what this would be like without thoughts showing up in it. I reckon it wouldn't be as rich and full without thoughts. There is nothing wrong with thoughts so long as they can be seen for what they are, and so long as their self-referencing nature is seen through.

It's clear that thoughts just pop up without a thinker of them, and that no "I" can be found in direct experience, so it's clear that "I" is just a thought, but STILL thought continues to refer to thought.

So thought says that a thought ("I") could be imagining things. A thought can't imagine things. Thoughts just follow thoughts, and refer to other thoughts. This is a self-referencing thought loop, and the only way to see through this thought loop is to test thought against direct evidence,

How difficult seems to me. Do you think it is easy?

I know that it can SEEM difficult, but difficult to who? Is there something that this is difficult for? Or is it just a thought that says that something is difficult?

When thought can not refer to itself, lots of confusing thoughts start to pop up, but is there something that is confused here, or are there just confusing thoughts showing up?

It's VERY important to keep checking thoughts against DIRECT experiential evidence, without thought stories.

Is 'this' ever confused? Can 'this' ever be confused? or does apparent confusion just show up in this?

I dont know what else to ell you. i try to observe during my work or my spare time what is the me, but I cant find an answer from direct experience. Things seem to be as always

That's because this always like this. And this has always been like this, but has there ever been an "I" that this has been "happening TO"?

Hi John
I think confusion has to do with a mental process. If there were no thoughts, there wouldnt be confusin. I can see that. And I can see that thoughts darken the vision of this as it is. But thoughts show up constantly and they are impossible to stop, so how can I see without thoughts, it is very difficult if not impossible at all. I try to observe reality without thought story, but who is trying to do that? A me which is another thought, so it is a loop. Can i do anything actually? I try to observe reality in a experiencial way, guided by my senses not by my thoughts, but well I dont see anything new

Hi Manuel

I do understand the feelings of frustration. I went through the same frustration myself. It does all seem to be mind-bending, but that's ONLY because thought says so.

Don't lose patience. You're doing fine. Stay with the process. Keep answering the questions. Even if they seem stupid or repetitious.

You may discover that you suddenly have an answer that you didn't have before.

I can see that. And I can see that thoughts darken the vision of this as it is. But thoughts show up constantly and they are impossible to stop, so how can I see without thoughts, it is very difficult if not impossible at all.

There is no need to see without thoughts, and there is absolutely no need for thoughts to stop either. Thoughts do their own thing - you are not the controller or thinker of them, so why are you paying them so much attention? The only thoughts that we're interested in during this process are the ones that can be verified with direct experiential evidence.

A thought can be there without it being believed. They can't darken anything if they're not believed. And they can't be believed if they have no correlate in direct evidence.

In fact you'll soon find that it's very difficult to believe thoughts that don't correspond to direct evidence. The more you practice something the more natural it becomes.

All that you have to do is continually check thought against DIRECT EXPERIENCE. Perhaps you've forgotten how to do that?

In this process It's important that you take each question that I ask you individually, and reply to them as accurately as possible. I'm not looking at your answers for right or wrong, I'm looking at them to try to understand where the confusion lies.

I will make sure that I don't ask you more than four questions in any one post, but please answer each of them as carefully and honestly as possible.

It's also important that you stick closely to the investigation and reply as often as possible. I've just read the whole thread again, and I can see that when you leave it for a few days you take a lot of back steps. Please read the whole thread again, and notice again what you have discovered from direct evidence. Notice also how you retrace your steps every time that you leave the enquiry for a few days.

Thought quickly rushes in to rebuild its self-created centre, so you have to be alert and continually check the thought against direct experience. You need to follow the investigation closely, and with clear and alert eyes. This is so simple that it's easy to miss.

This is not a long thread. Please read the whole thread again, and then answer the four questions that I asked you in my previous post.

Please don't tell me that you can't answer. All I'm asking for is honest answers based on direct experiential evidence. Just do your best, even if you think that your reply doesn't mean anything important.

Hi, John. I have been out for three days with mu students, but I was paying attention at direct experience as carefully as I could, and I read the whole thread again. You are right there are steps back and forward. I found very usefull and relieving what you wrote about thoughts. About letting thoughts being their way.i was asking me what is the I, and if i am rhe thinker of thoughts. I cant find no center in direct experience but some how there seems to be a center, a here and a there related to the body, but sometimes I am walking and there is no evidence of a body, only things appearing, but thoughts seem to be things of a different kind from trees or cars or other bodies. I realize that there is a body when I imagine myself watching it from outside, but that is using imagination, not direct experience. I imagine like a ghost face over this space here and that gives me the sense of an I. But It seems as if I dont trust this empty space,perhaps the fearness of the nothing or the fact I am used to takimg control of myself if that were possible.
In direct experience sometimes there is a feeling of lightness, of being only soul not flesh and bones. But at the same time I feel that I rely on thoughts so much...i dont know where is the sense of I , mostly in my thoughts.
I dont know if I am working hard enough, or if I am trying it with too effort and that is no good. It is difficult for me to observe in a relaxed way. There seems to be a lot of energy involved

Hi Manuel

I can find no center in direct experience but some how there seems to be a center, a here and a there related to the body,

Check with direct experience - is there a center in direct experience, or are there just thoughts that speak about a center?

but sometimes I am walking and there is no evidence of a body, only things appearing, but thoughts seem to be things of a different kind from trees or cars or other bodies.

Thoughts are similar to smells, or emotions. They show up in 'this' without any apparent visual or physical correlate. The image of a tree shows up in this just like a thought does. Is the image of a tree really any different to a thought?

I realize that there is a body when I imagine myself watching it from outside, but that is using imagination, not direct experience. I imagine like a ghost face over this space here and that gives me the sense of an I. But It seems as if I dont trust this empty space,perhaps the fearness of the nothing or the fact I am used to takimg control of myself if that were possible.

Ahh but is this space ever empty? Isn't it always showing up full of stuff like thoughts, sounds, smells, images, people, etc, etc?

In direct experience sometimes there is a feeling of lightness, of being only soul not flesh and bones.

The feeling of "lightness" is direct experience but the thoughts about soul, and flesh and blood are just thought stories.

But at the same time I feel that I rely on thoughts so much...i dont know where is the sense of I , mostly in my thoughts.

Is there any sense of "I" outside of thought, or any "I" that can be confirmed with direct experience?

I dont know if I am working hard enough, or if I am trying it with too effort and that is no good. It is difficult for me to observe in a relaxed way. There seems to be a lot of energy involved

You're doing very well, don't worry about feelings of confusion and energy. It's only thought that talks about confusion and lots of energy. When thought's self-thought-up 'center' is looked at, lots of thoughts start showing up with ideas of alternate centers to use as an "I".

Hi, John
I have been realizing how thoughts take possesion of feelings very fast and put lables on them, so we feel through thoughts i dont know what else to tell you. I keep observing my true experience without the veil of thoughts. I feel a bit less worried about thoughts, trying not to see them as the enemy but as other things that appear. I observ my experiences while I am eating, walking, or when I am in a meeting. And I ask myself what is that sensation of an I . Where does it come from. I cant tell the I is in a particular part. It seems to be more in my head because it is there where we supposse the thoughts are, but the head is actually the idea, the thought of a head showing up.
Sometimes i find relaxing being in the direct experience and not in the though-experience. i ll keep observing