Laurens this is for you :)

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
In direct experience no I do not see it, I would not even know what it would look like. In direct experience now there is tiredness felt in the body, I can hear the rain outside and discomfort felt in the gut. That is all.
This week I am launching my business at a trade show so will be away from home all week and I will try and leave posts when possible but I am not sure how much internet access I will have through the week.
But thankyou Vivi for your continued support
Laurens

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens. I wish you good luck with the new business. I will be away most of the week too, not knowning if internet will be available. I will come to the forum a couple of times during the week (until next Tuesday).

I will come back to you in a couple of hours, with something for you to work on.

Hav e a nice evening
Vivi

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens

There are a couple of question you have not answered, please look into them in direct experience and tell me what happens. Take your time, I know you are busi at the moment.

1. What is it that wants
2. Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Greetings
Vivi

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
I am back and keen as ever to explore. What is it that wants? It's some impulse or movement towards or movement away or just movement within experience that seems to just arise. *This is when desire is stripped down bare. Is there any choice in going along with it though? I do not know, sometimes there seems to be a choice to buy into it and some times its only afterwards that I realise that the pattern has played out.
The next question am I the thinker of thoughts?
This has been a real interesting one, thoughts have arisen and fallen within experience and have been watched but this is when experience seems to be relaxed and there is space and allowing. When there is stress, tension physicaly this doesnt seem to be the case all thougths seem to be pounced upon and followed.. I guess in an attempt to change the experience.
Anyway I hope you are well
Thankyou
Laurens

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens

What is it that seems to follow thoughts when there are tension etc.?

Greetings Vivi

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
They are just followed. By this isness. But to follow there must be an object to follow and a follower but they are too close together to be distinguished as such.
So there just is this isness.

Just to put this out on the table... so there is tension, seemingly dysfunctional behaviour (for example constant obsessing about the next breath fear it might not come) which seems so related to an individual but it is just happening not to an individual or because of an individual it is just happening. Completely unpersonal. But yet experienced through the appearance of an individual in a world of individuals.

Wow...

How?
Why?

Thankyou
Laurens

[dreamer]

...in an apparent world of individuals ... to be more precisely....

How? This is it
Why? This is it

Nothing more, nothing less. This.

Feel it for a day, then come back here :)

[lcurteis]

Its incredible how it seems possible to lose or forget a certain realization/understanding and to re-discover it at a later time. I guess this keeps it alive keeps it fresh. So any effort by the 'small me' the individual to make the realisations my own are futile. No amount of reminding saying it like a mantra will do anything. This I am finding fascinating.
There is nothing I can do but be what is now.
Again I'm at a point of being speechless.

This.... This.... This

IS

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens, Yes constantly rediscovering 'this' moment by moment, that is what I find beautiful - and the simplicity....

Do you feel you still miss something in seeing 'I' do not exist?

Vivi

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
I do not feel as if there is completeness,accepting, allowing in every moment. I feel there is a understanding here but that it is not a complete understanding..meaning it hasn't penetrated/permeated every part of my being.
I don't know if I'm projecting expectations of what complete realization should be but it feels as if it is not fully integrated. My outside life and inside life are not in harmony. There is conflict, there are strong desires, strong fears and I am affected by all these, they do not run through cleanly they catch up against parts of me and there is physical pain and mental turmoil in their wake.
Thanks
Laurens

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens

When there is conflict, strong desires, strong fears and you are affecgted of these, do you see them as YOUR conflicts, desires, fears. What about the physical pain ans mental turmoil is it yours? Do you feel that there is an I involved in all this?

Can you describe in which way they catch up against parts of you - which parts?

What do you mean about outside and inside life?

Warm regards Vivi

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
Yes I guess I do see them as mine...but only the one's that trouble me..that I dont like. Haha that sounds so silly, talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
But saying that I do see them as mine isnt totally true. It's like the immediate, knee jerk reaction is to take them as a part of this identity me but then that doesnt feel right.
I guess I mean that they seem to hang around longer and it feels as if it is in parts of the body. Strong desire is usually felt in the stomach, fear is felt in the chest. But happiness for example or contentness is felt in the body too but it is fleeting it is not felt as heavy but light.

I'm not too sure what I ment by inside and outside. I think its to do with the social aspect, like the difference in my experience when I'm by myself out in a field somewhere or if im in a group of people in town for example.

..
Thankyou for your continued guidance and support Vivi
Laurens

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens

What are you? Are you the feelings, the thoughts, the body, the brain, the one suffering, the fearfull one?

What is the identity me?

Thank you for your continued investigation :)
Vivi

[lcurteis]

Vivi,
I don't know what I am and that's why I'm scared. I dont know what these sensations are in my body. I dont know what anything is when I look out my eyes.
I don't know anything.
I dont even know how to live.

IS is the only word that feels like any truth.

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens

I don't know what I am and that's why I'm scared

I understand your experience this way: there used to be a belief of being a human, with an 'I'. Then 'I' was seen as the illusion it is. And now there is confusion of what you are? Only thing you feel as true is 'IS'.

No wonder! The shift that seems to have happend are the shift from perceiving yourself as human to recognize yourself as being. As 'is'. Not being anyone or anything, just being.

This 'being' - or 'Isness' seems to be what everything arises into. So there is a feeling of sensations, feelings, emotions, and all the thoughts and you don't seem to know what they are or who they belong to. But they just are as they are, belonging to nobody, just being, they just IS.

Now there also seem to be some feeling of identity with a body left. Which feels confusing, how can it be your body, when you do not exist?? - what are they and who do they belong to? - questions like these arises out of the confusion. Body is not you, it simply is an appearance in the 'Isness'. Sensations etc. does not belong to body, they also just arises in 'Isness'.

'Scared' are a feeling appearing in 'Isness'. it does not belong to you. It simply Is. You can see it for what it is..a feeling - a thought - sensations in the body - just let it be - it is not yours, it can not hurt you.

I dont even know how to live.

The good thing is that you do not need to know! Only if there seem to be some identification with an 'I', which has to controle life to live - and who thinks it has the ability to controle life, can there be the need to KNOW how to liv -. and 'I' do not know how to live and do not have the control at all, it is simply a belief, a thought...and thought just arises in 'Isness'....Being has no clue how to live and doesn't need to know....Being/'Isness' is life and life simply Is, no one is living it.

How does it feel to read this?
Do not believe anything I have written. Notice what emotions, feelings, thoughts arises when reading it, check it in direct experience, and then reply.

Warm regards Vivi