who would like to guide me?

[odemira]

Dear Liv,

It sounds like your memories about your dog are very painful to you, thank you for sharing. It was my experience too when I was being guided on LU that some very ancient & painful parts of 'my story' re-emerged to be re-experienced and released.

Liv, as you know Liberation Forum only focuses on guiding people to see through the illusion of the self. We're all just volunteer guides who have seen through the illusion but we are not trained as therapists to help people with their life stories. Although there are some guides who also work professionally as therapists. So it may be that you feel it would be better to carry on being guided by someone who is also a therapist, which I'm not? Not that I'm turning away from you in any way, just I want what is the best for you.

If you'd like me to carry on guiding you to see through the illusion of self, I'm very happy to do that - and I'm going to be pointing you to see that the sad and guilty feelings are 100% real as they happen in your body in the moment, and that the memories are just a story, a sad sad story, thoughts arising in the brain. Everything is happening automatically, just as you've noticed your body is doing everything automatically, so whatever happened in your story could not have been any other way than it was. So could you forgive yourself now?

When the negative feelings arise, I found it helpful to just let them be there, to let them wash through the body rather than resisting them, and they will pass. Really focus attention in to the physical sensation of the feeling in the body. Someone said to me that crying was just 'eye leakage' - this really helped me see that there is the physical sensation (eyes leaking fluid) and then the mind labels it (I am crying, I feel sad etc), and thoughts continue and the story of the sad self gets written some more. But its just a story.

So Liv, let me know what you want to do - if you feel my approach is ok for you, that's fine, it you'd like me to find you another guide, that's fine - whatever is best for you,
with love
Annie

[tsaheylu]

dearest annie,

thank you so much for your reply.
i definately do not want another guide. you are great.
i also am not interested in anything other than you guiding me and pointing me
to seeing that "I" is illsuion. i am not interested in healing my story, because
i realize that is not possible and all this suffering has brought me here, prepared me
and fanned my greatest deepest desire to die, in other words to realize that i, who i think
i am, do not exist.

i am very glad you mentioned that you also had some very deep
old pain surface in this process. and i am glad that you keep reminding me of truth
and do not engange in the story, other than perhaps as a diving board into truth.

i will admit that i am a little impatient and wishing and hoping to see this sooner
than later. i guess that is an expectation i need to let go of?
there is a part of me that would like to begin this conversation and not stop until i see it.
on the other hand, it takes some time in between to experiment, to watch, to investigate.
and i need a fresh awake mind for this. it is impossible to do this when exhausted.

can i forgive myself now? i cannot even think about it. i would have to pick up the feeling that i did something terrible and i cannot go there, because i am totally exhausted. the other thing is that for me, i cannot forgive. forgiveness does not exist. i can only see that there never was anything to forgive, because there was never a me that did anything. or as in the case of others having done terrible things to me, my unconditional love for them never enabled me to cut off my love from them. forgiving myself would be like realizing that i have been in pain over a weather situation that my brain interpreted as a story in which there was a me doing something to another being, which was terrible. forgiveness for me is being able to see what really was going on, without the minds interpretation into a story which was percieved personally.

thank you so much for your recommendations, your heart, your dedication, your time,
your gift!

good night dear annie,
all my gratitude and appreciation to you,
love,
liv

[tsaheylu]

p.s. on a side note on account of the offering of therapist-guides: i had loads of therapy, with an excellent therapist. been there, done that, got the t-shirt. a milestone to where i am now.

[tsaheylu]

good morning again annie,

still on the looking excersize with narrating what i am doing, once with i am doing and once with this is happening...still feels like i am the one who is thinking and thereby doing...at the same time when i check whatever i am narrating, is already happening...it's still a bit obscure, as if it's hard to really go to the source and see clearly how thoughts emerge and actions begin...as if drugged...or as if in my mind there where a force shield around the area where thoughts emerge and impulses for actions come in and everytime i look there already there, happening...

but then at the same time the sense i am doing this, i said this. and always always the regret, the judgement the feeling of "what a stupid thing to say." "why didn't i rather keep my mouth shut?", "why didn't i rather feel inside me than look at him and get sucked into that feeling that i need to protect myself, as i can see in his eyes, he is protecting himself and feels attacked eventhough i am not attacking him". there is so much not liking appearing. not liking what i say and how i act and the same with others.

"i don't like when i look at him and see he is in protection/attack mode eventhough i am not attacking". and i know it is just this not liking, this subtle judging, that is on the other side of the same coin. it's just because it doesn't seem to appear at the same time. it seems he was first. first when i looked at his eyes and saw where he is at and felt his vibes my instant reaction is "i don't like" and "why on earth is he having afraid or aggressive vibes towards me?", "what does he see in me?" but seeing this in his eyes immedetaely triggers fear in me and a desire to protect. the fact that this is automatic and i cannot manage to stay cool emotionally and not have this be triggered, upsets me. gosh and it must be the same for him, except it seems to me that it's him triggering this in me. but there is a readyness in me, a conditioning which is the same in him and we trigger eachother and it just seems to me that he is the trigger, he is the first, the culprit, the creator of my emotional reaction, when really it's happening at the same time and we both can't controle it.

so actually this situation appearing is a good opportunity for me to look and see about this too.

[odemira]

Dear Liv,

Thank you!! I'm glad we have mutual clarity on what we're looking at together - let's continue!

all this suffering has brought me here, prepared me and fanned my greatest deepest desire to die, in other words to realize that i, who i think i am, do not exist.

Liv, there is no self and never was. There is only life, arising or happening. You are not who you think you are (literally). “You” seem to exist because the thought “I” appears. Then you believe it, then it has a life, and then all of “your” life gets created. But that life is not you, and it is not who you really are. In reality, you are nothing and no one. Life is happening – and there is nothing outside of that. The illusion is that “you” are personal. Nothing can happen to “you” because there is no “you.” “You” can’t be harmed. The body can perish, but it’s not “your” body any more than a flower is “your” body – it’s the body of life.

i am a little impatient and wishing and hoping to see this sooner than later. i guess that is an expectation i need to let go of? there is a part of me that would like to begin this conversation and not stop until i see it. on the other hand, it takes some time in between to experiment, to watch, to investigate.

You guess right, Liv, this process will take exactly as long as it takes, neither you nor I know how long that will be. It's better to really investigate and let each realisation sink in, rather than rushing too fast and staying confused.

What we need to investigate is how this feeling of being an 'I' gets created. Once you can see how it gets built up, then it will be seen through as an illusion. And we'll do this bit by bit, step by step, ok?

it's still a bit obscure, as if it's hard to really go to the source and see clearly how thoughts emerge and actions begin

Yes, particularly if there's a lot of thinking happening. But that's not a problem. Let's do this as an experiment, to be done when your mind is relatively quiet. Perhaps in a garden or in nature. Close your eyes, then open them again and look around you. Then close your eyes, move your head to a different position and open them and look around you. Can you notice that your eyes see things, your ears hear things, maybe your nose smells something, and if you already know what the sight or sound or smell is, then a thought may not arise. If you don't, the thought will arise either asking what is that sound? or giving it a name. And then more thoughts may just happen, with comments, judgements, imaginings, memories - a series of thoughts.

What is really important for you to notice is how the mind thinks a thought identifying what has just been seen, heard etc. Remember, that evolved from cave man days - it was vital to identify whether something was a sabre tooth tiger or not! Keep looking, over and over, until you can clearly see how the mind is a 'naming machine'.

he is the first, the culprit, the creator of my emotional reaction, when really it's happening at the same time and we both can't controle it. so actually this situation appearing is a good opportunity for me to look and see about this too.

Yes, he can't help being who he's being, and neither can you. When we understand that, it's easier to have understanding and compassion for the 'other'. And remember that just because we think a thought, it doesn't mean that what we think is true. I recommend Byron Katie's The Work for investigating the truth of what we think.

with love
Annie

[tsaheylu]

good morning annie,

thank you for your reply.
let me first inform you that i will be out of town from tomorrow wednesday until the following monday night (sept. 10th), in which i will not have my laptop with me, but will check in from other locations whenever i can. i can already predict that the only poosibility i will have to post is on thursday, saturday and sunday. i will be back here at my desk on tuesday again :)

“You” can’t be harmed. The body can perish, but it’s not “your” body any more than a flower is “your” body – it’s the body of life.

i understand this conceptually. however it's all about perception. it does not hurt when i cut a flower or eat a plant. i do not feel the body of the plant, but i feel everything happening to and in this body that i have been looking from and sensing from since i remember. so this will remain a statement that my body is no more my body than that of a flower. it will not change my perception however, which is what counts.

[tsaheylu]

this process will take exactly as long as it takes, neither you nor I know how long that will be. It's better to really investigate and let each realisation sink in, rather than rushing too fast and staying confused.

yes I get that, I am totally with you.

What we need to investigate is how this feeling of being an 'I' gets created. Once you can see how it gets built up, then it will be seen through as an illusion. And we'll do this bit by bit, step by step, ok?

YES, sounds great!

Keep looking, over and over, until you can clearly see how the mind is a 'naming machine'.

will do

remember that just because we think a thought, it doesn't mean that what we think is true. I recommend Byron Katie's The Work for investigating the truth of what we think.

yes, this tool, the 4 questions and turn around has become second nature to me.

i started writing my latest observations into thought process on word this morning. will post when that segment feels complete.

good night,
liv

p.s. even on those coming days when i won't be able to post (tomorrow, friday, monday) i will hold on to this thread.

[odemira]

Hi Liv,

Trust that trip goes well, and look forward to hearing about your observations as and when it is possible.

with love
Annie

[tsaheylu]

dear annie,
i got back home yesterday evening totally exhausted.
it was unrealistic of me to think i could have posted on this trip.
at the same time i thought about this process a lot and it makes a difference to know
that i am in this thread, in this communication with you.
i also realize why it is important to stay tuned in here. at the same it just was not possible
for me to post. so now i am back...:)
I am going on another trip on friday. i do not know yet how long this trip will be,
however on this one, i will let you know where i am at (post-wise) and when i will have the space to post.
you can rest assured that if you do not hear from me, i am still with the process in spirit
and it is not possible for me to post and that i will post as soon as possible and
will let you know about it as soon as possible.
now i will re-read what i began to write as a reply to your post and did not complete and pick back
up from there.
warm regards, liv

[tsaheylu]

this is what i had written before i left on my trip, inspired by your before last post to me:

my observations since yesterday where that most of my experience isn't so much that thoughts pop up naming my sense perceptions. like right now, i hear a voice in my head, not viscerally, but i can hear my thoughts in my mind.
it's not an active hearing, it's thinking. but i am right there with my thinking, aware of it. and more than that it seems like i am talking the thoughts and imaginatively hearing them at the same time, just what i am writing now.

during my walk i noticed how my mind kept slipping into imagining a pleasant situation in the future. my attention was in this imaginary world rather than on my actual surroundings. after a while of this i would always realize that i was focused on a fantasy. i did not remember when it started, just like i never remember the event of falling asleep. but i would describe it like an almost unnoticable slipping into a spellbinding story, my focused attention fixed on it, gaining some kind of juice from it, which isn't found in the actual happening. although i am walking in a beautiful forest, i kept slipping into the fantasy until i realized "oh, it happened again". the moment of realization is usually also the moment when there is no more emotional juice being drawn from the fantasy.

when the imaginary story has a certain attraction, slipping into it will happen over and over. i cannot prevent it, because i do not notice the slipping in, as the slipping in is similar to slipping off to sleep or being anesthetized. it seems as if my emotional body derives some kind of satisfaction from it. like some kind of hormones or thereof are being fed by the imagination. whether the brain imagines something or something really happens, these oragnisms don't seem to be able to tell the difference (in there). makes sense. How would they know? nevertheless, an imagination is never as strong as the real deal.

the way i make sense of this is, that these emotional organisms want to be fed. and when they don't get any juice from what's really going on, the mind kicks in to deliver an action movie, which will produce the juice they want.

The moment I realize I've been watching a movie again, is the moment the movie lost juice. In that moment I also notice that this process of being spellbound to a movie in my mind, deprives my attention from being present here now and thereby makes me feel less alive and stale.

But there is no use to try and avoid this. it will only turn what is happening into a problem. All I do is notice.

I know from my experience that in time, watching a movie in my mind becomes less and less attractive than what is really happening. This is a natural process.

So yesterday I clearly experienced how mind is a habit. How attention falls into the same thoughtpathways over and over. The more a certain thought chain has been churned the more it seems to be charged magentically i.e. attractive. Like rubbing over artifical fabric creates static.

The unconscious sticking to a thoughtpattern, unknowingly believing a thought or clusters of thought can surface into consciousness. Then it is seen "oh, I was just off watching this movie again", "oh I was just just believing this", "oh I was just thinking of myself being in this situation". It is mostly when what attention is fixed on in the mind becomes either stale or creates stress emotionally, that it is noticed what attention was fixed on: imagination, not what was really happening.

In the noticing of the process it loses power. Like the wizard of oz loses spellbindig power, when it's seen that he's a regular guy behind a curtain. Like a movie-scene loses spellbinding power when a microphone shows up in the frame. The illusion is seen through. It is seen how it is created. If david copperfield would show how his tricks are done, it would lose spellbinding power. The spellbinding is not knowing the truth and being mesmerized by, shocked into, fixated on an illusion, which seems real until it's seen through.

However it is not enough to know mentally, it's a trick. The trick will get me everytime until I have seen it for myself. The images will get me as long as I have not seen what they are made of and what is actually going on in my mind.

I heard my thoughts as I am doing now. This narrater has my voice and yet it is not heard by the ear. It is an imaginary sound just like I can imagine an image or smell without seeing or smelling it. it seems obvious that I am this narrator. There is no difference between me and this voice speaking the thoughts arising. But I am not choosing the thoughts/words being spoken in my head.

I am not asking myself:"oh, what am I going to say now?", and look into a pool of infinite thoughts and pick which ones I want to say. This does not make sense. But if this where a part of the process than the next question would be, according to what , am I picking these thoughts? Wouldn't that be on account of more thoughts?
Or is the choosing of thoughts just automatically happening?

Why would I choose chocolate ice-cream over vanilla? And perhaps another time the other way around? Perhaps there is a simple biological explanation on account of a greater magnitude of organisms in my body preferring whatever substances are available in chocolate on that day than in vanilla. This again would be based on their make up. The weather is according to climate, is according to the make up of the countryside.

Was there an architect of this country side, who put every blade of grass in its place by volition ? Like it would be with a house ? And if this where so, like with a house: then where did this volition come from ? The architect's vision, his wanting to create it this exact way?

One could say, from the architect, or from god. In both cases it is refering to a mind! Visions, images and thoughts happen in mind, before they are created into matter. At least this we know from all things man made or animal made.

My mind took for granted that animals and plants and all other elements forming the landscape are nature and that man, because he "destroys" nature isn't nature, or isn't natural. And hence all that man creates is man made and not part of nature. But who makes man's body? Who is the architect the creator of man's body? People don't make people. people show up in people. so nature makes people. so man is as much nature as is a tree.

We can say thinking sets man apart from nature and man's thinking has become unnatural as it is "destroying" nature and thereby itself.

Now we come back to the creation process. Whether man or god creates something consciously, or chooses something, where does this idea or preference come from ? we are clear that we as humans do not consciously create other humans. We might decide to want to have a baby. And where does this come from ? a feeling a thought, where does that come from?

So lets say there would be a higher being or a god that made the world and if it made the world it would have to be the creator of the whole universe. This already fails because the universe is inifinte, which means it has no form as a whole. And a creator could either only have made it all or nothing, otherwise we are talking of many creators, many gods. Many gods again are beings, that are simply greater than us. but they could not be almighty, that which is refered to as god.

There cannot be a god. One being, has some kind of form, a form is an appearance, an appearance seems finite. When there is one there has to be two. When there is one, who made that one?

When there is time, where did it begin? If it's eternal, how can there be time?

when there is space and it's infinite, there can not be no space, because that would just be more space outside of space. If space is something, where does it end? It cannot end because what is behind it ? only more space.

Even if god where a mind, that created the universe, where did the thoughts, the visions and ideas come from in the mind of god? Who created those? And who created that mind ?

It's like two mirrors facing eachother. It never ends. The question for "who created these thoughts", "who chose these thoughts" cannot be answered, because as soon as I answer: "this one did", or: "the cluster of these organisms did", the question continues: and how did they come up with these thoughts ? this choice/prefrence/ideas/images/visions ? A continuous investigating of minds of creators, minds of other sources. And its always the same. Always mind, in which thoughts and images appear with respective sensational and emotional reactions in the body.

So the question of "who" makes thoughts and "who" chooses which thoughts appear in mind, is answered by realizing: "no one does, they appear".

So no one, no thing, makes or chooses thoughts and images,…

Still the impression I get is that I choose chocolate, or I felt like offering my help. OK, the thought arose, I churned on it and then a clear feeling arose of, "yes that's what I want to do", then the impulse comes to act, words flow, body moves. Thought arising, feeling arising, impulse arising, speaking happening, body moving.

Even when it's arising upon a long history of pondering thoughts and in the end it made sense to do a certain action; so even when it comes more from rational thinking than from a feeling. Who chose the thoughts of that thinking process ? Who chose to think in this or in that way ? who chose to marinate in these thoughts ?

Chosing does not imply that there is someone chosing because a computer can chose. However when a computer makes choices we call it random or by default. We call it a programm. Someone programmed it, and who created or chose his thoughts ? In this case we acknowledge that there is no organic mind making choices. When an animal makes a choice it is mostly acknowledged that it's choices are made instinctually, which means immedeately according to make-up without an intermittent thought process. This implies no conscious choice making. All this means is that according to observation, there seems to be no thoughts shoing up in their minds of the sort: " I am going to do this, because…" or "…in order to..".


However scientists are finding lots of examples where animals plan ahead and use tools. And I just investigated that even when I make a conscious choice, this is a result of thoughts appearing in my mind. And I have investigated that no one makes or chooses thoughts appearing in my mind or in any mind.

So then what sets conscious choice making apart from a computerprogramm or instinct?

If I say I chose between several options that appeared in my mind. The choice I make can be explained by my physical make up and mental conditioning (history).

The problem I am circelling around is not choice. Choice apparently happens.

[tsaheylu]

from a logical come-from it seems obvious,
that thoughts appear, no one creates them and no one chooses them.

which means i cannot help what thoughts pop into my mind,
whether i believe these thoughts unconsciously,
or what i consciously believe;
it would mean that i cannot help whether the impulse or the desire shows up
to question my beliefs either.

in my case, i wish to question all my stressful beliefs. why? because i believe this will deliver freedom.
another belief.

i believe that seeing through the illusion of me being a person, an entity, a seperate self will
...

i don't know. and as i desired to let go of my expectations, i did. when i notice i am having one again,
i let it go. i get a sense that it is a concept, an idea and it cannot be the real deal, only ever a bad copy
on a piece of paper.


this also means that i cannot help what i do...

because even when a movement can be traced back to an impulse and a thought, and even when this thought and this movement was conscious: "I am going to do this" (the difference between murder and manslaughter is that murder is planned and manslaughter is done without thinking in affect)- where did this thought "I am going to do this" and the vision to do it, come from? so even when there seems to be volition: "I want to do this" where does that want come from? the physical and mental make up of body, which again comes from what shows up in mind of ever smaller organisms.

one could ad spiritual make up. But even if the volition of the soul is part of the equation it does not change the result of the investigation that there is no one creating or choosing the thoughts and feelings showing up in the soul.

OK from a logical come-from this is clear.

This however does not change the impression that I think and I do etc.---of a me.

Especially when I am very tired as now, I seem to only get this mentally, logically,
But it seems too difficult to actually observe and i do not actually see it yet.

Nevertheless I will stick to observing furthermore the thought process.

I would love if you had some more ideas or experiments on how I can do this...:))

[odemira]

Hi Liv,

Nice to have you back here! I'm going to answer each of your posts separately, just to make it simpler for us.

It's completely fine that you were not able to post while you were away - it probably was good as it gave you an opportunity to observe yourself.

And of course it is fine if you can't post while you are away on your next trip, I'll be here on your return.

now to your next post....

[odemira]

Hi Liv

Wow, you've done an impressive amount of observation of the thinking processes. As you noticed, these processes can be narration or commentating on what's happening, they can be imagination, fantasizing, 'movie-making', remembering, logical thought - all just different versions of a thinking process.

The moment I realize I've been watching a movie again, is the moment the movie lost juice. In that moment I also notice that this process of being spellbound to a movie in my mind, deprives my attention from being present here now and thereby makes me feel less alive and stale. But there is no use to try and avoid this. it will only turn what is happening into a problem. All I do is notice.

Good observation, Liv. Just notice and the attention can switch back into the here and now.

So yesterday I clearly experienced how mind is a habit. How attention falls into the same thoughtpathways over and over.

Yes indeed.

so man is as much nature as is a tree.

Yes, not separate from Life at all.

I heard my thoughts as I am doing now. This narrater has my voice and yet it is not heard by the ear. It is an imaginary sound just like I can imagine an image or smell without seeing or smelling it. it seems obvious that I am this narrator. There is no difference between me and this voice speaking the thoughts arising. But I am not choosing the thoughts/words being spoken in my head.

Do you remember that we looked at how the mind identifies and labels everything? Look around a new place attentively, and notice how your mind is working out what things are, giving them a name, and then moving on to look at the next thing and label it. If there is the imaginary voice being heard, what label does the mind give to it?

OK, the thought arose, I churned on it and then a clear feeling arose of, "yes that's what I want to do", then the impulse comes to act, words flow, body moves. Thought arising, feeling arising, impulse arising, speaking happening, body moving.

If you look at what you've written here, where does the 'I' appear? Is there a real tangible self there, or is it a label given to what was happening. In the second sentence, the same thing is said but without using the word I.

that thoughts appear, no one creates them and no one chooses them.

Yes, well spotted!

this also means that i cannot help what i do...

Indeed, if the body moves automatically and the thoughts appear automatically, what happens is what happens - no chooser, no doer.

This however does not change the impression that I think and I do etc.---of a me.

I understand that, and we'll be looking into that IMPRESSION (good word) bit by bit.

Next questions to consider, Liv:
Can a thought be owned?
Can they really be 'your' thoughts?
Can a thought think?

Please answer these by observing what happens, rather than from thinking about it. Thinking is going to keep you in your mind, which you said feels less alive and stale. Let's focus on fresh and vibrant, the here and now ;)

Well done, Liv,
with love
Annie

[tsaheylu]

good morning annie,

thank you so much for your lovely post ! and for taking the time to read my reel of observations!

i love how you are so to the point!!

the last experiment you suggested before a left on my trip...

Let's do this as an experiment, to be done when your mind is relatively quiet. Perhaps in a garden or in nature. Close your eyes, then open them again and look around you. Then close your eyes, move your head to a different position and open them and look around you. Can you notice that your eyes see things, your ears hear things, maybe your nose smells something, and if you already know what the sight or sound or smell is, then a thought may not arise. If you don't, the thought will arise either asking what is that sound? or giving it a name. And then more thoughts may just happen, with comments, judgements, imaginings, memories - a series of thoughts.

i did this. went and lay in a beautiful garden. when i opened my eyes no labeling, no comments...only when thinking about "doing" the experiment labels would halfhazardeously be thrown in. however i recognized that this was not the natural reaction of mind, but mind abiding to rules of a game. it was like an artificial layer on top of stillness.
and as this was clear, it was like understanding what my mind was doing and saying to it: "it's OK, no need to do this as a performance, this is not about performance, lets just be and see".

and it became clear to me that when i opened my eyes, seeing grass and trees etc. since nothing is unfamilar, no thoughts about it appear. even when i never lay in that spot before, it was all familiar and known.

so i like the idea of

Look around a new place attentively, and notice how your mind is working out what things are, giving them a name, and then moving on to look at the next thing and label it. If there is the imaginary voice being heard, what label does the mind give to it?

looking at mind activity in a new place. i will have oppotunity when i go on my trip.

off to looking...:)

[odemira]

Hi Liv,

Love your continued dedication to seeing through this illusion!

As you say, you've got more looking to do to notice how the mind identifies and labels things and happenings. And also the questions about thoughts:

Can a thought be owned?
Can they really be 'your' thoughts?
Can a thought think?

So I suggest you take your time with these and let me know how you get on. Just trust that this is all unfolding at the perfect pace for you :)))

with love
Annie