Seeking to see the no-self

[Anastacia42]

Yes, Thursday is fine.

Yes, you must use looking from where you are now.

Loving,

[Humblesight7]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

1. No, it was just imagined.

2. From my perspective it is composed of self referential thought, thought that labels itself as something separate from what is actually happening in reality, which then creates a maddening web of thoughts constantly referring to prior thoughts, all under the umbrella of the 'I' thought.

3. It feels relief to see this, I spent who knows how many years looking for the answer to 'fix' myself when there isn't anything there to fix in the first place. There is an abiding quiet now as thought has subsided quite a bit, I'm more calmer and prior personal issues I had don't really have much hold anymore, there's no 'I' to attach problems to anymore, conditioning sure, but it doesn't 'belong' to me if that makes sense.

4. I had been involved in similar work prior to this, the most relevant one being the Mahasattipatthana Sutti meditations, which are exercises in direct experience, so to be honest just having a guide to point and say look after getting over the initial fear was enough, it was rather subtle, I thought it would be earth shaking, but for me it wasn't.

5.
a. Decision- This is interesting because although there are thoughts about courses of action to take, I can't really see a point of decision, things are just done, there's no decider.

b. Intention- There can be sensations of desire and action taken, but theres nobody intending anything that I can see.

c. Free Will/Choice- I put these together because they appear to be two sides of the same coin, the best I can figure is options in direct experience, which conditioning will probably determine any action taken.

d. control- Control is something the 'I' thought loves, I control this and that trying to manage it's existence, but not much control is neccessary as life happens on it's own.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I really don't know, things happen regardless if there's an I or not.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This is a tricky one, for example I have a cat, I could say I am responsible for feeding her and caring for her, but I do it anyway regardless of an 'I'. This one is hard to answer.

As far as anything to add? Not much aside from your feedback, and any suggestions how I may continue on this journey!

[Anastacia42]

Good, except we want one Quoted Question with the answer underneath. Then another Quoted Question with the answer underneath, not a while block of questions.

Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions.

I have one. Please look carefully at what you are responsible for.. It is a bit paradoxical..


Loving,

[Humblesight7]

ok, let me rework it:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, it was just imagined.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

From my perspective it is composed of self referential thought, thought that labels itself as something separate from what is actually happening in reality, which then creates a maddening web of thoughts constantly referring to prior thoughts, all under the umbrella of the 'I' thought.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels relief to see this, I spent who knows how many years looking for the answer to 'fix' myself when there isn't anything there to fix in the first place. There is an abiding quiet now as thought has subsided quite a bit, I'm more calmer and prior personal issues I had don't really have much hold anymore, there's no 'I' to attach problems to anymore, conditioning sure, but it doesn't 'belong' to me if that makes sense.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I had been involved in similar work prior to this, the most relevant one being the Mahasattipatthana Sutti meditations, which are exercises in direct experience, so to be honest just having a guide to point and say look after getting over the initial fear was enough, it was rather subtle, I thought it would be earth shaking, but for me it wasn't.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

This is interesting because although there are thoughts about courses of action to take, I can't really see a point of decision, things are just done, there's no decider.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

There can be sensations of desire and action taken, but theres nobody intending anything that I can see.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

I put these together because they appear to be two sides of the same coin, the best I can figure is options in direct experience, which conditioning will probably determine any action taken.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is something the 'I' thought loves, I control this and that trying to manage it's existence, but not much control is neccessary as life happens on it's own.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I really don't know, things happen regardless if there's an I or not.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This is a tricky one, for example I have a cat, I could say I am responsible for feeding her and caring for her, but I do it anyway regardless of an 'I'. This one is hard to answer.

Anything to add?

Not much aside from your feedback, and any suggestions how I may continue on this journey!

Please look carefully at what you are responsible for.. It is a bit paradoxical..

Upon further reflection, I would say my own actions.

[Anastacia42]

Upon further reflection, I would say my own actions

Given your other answers. "no decider" "no one intending" and "things happen regardless if there's an I or not." How is it even possible to be responsible for "your" actions?

Loving

[Humblesight7]

[quoteHow is it even possible to be responsible for "your" actions?][/quote]

I really don't know the answer to that. It doesn't make sense.

[Humblesight7]

How is it even possible to be responsible for "your" actions?

Perhaps 'I' am not responsible for anything.

[Anastacia42]

Another guide is asking the same question. We want you really clear before we turn you loose here

So why "perhaps?" Are you just having trouble with the idea that you might feel irresponsible? Or what is it?

I sometimes say that there is a difference between the relative and the absolute, but that doesn't sit well with some people. In the relative it seems that you do have some responsibilities, but in the absolute you couldn't possibly be responsible for anything. There's no "I" to do that. That is what I meant by paradox. It kind of straddles the fence, though.

Loving,

[Humblesight7]

So why "perhaps?" Are you just having trouble with the idea that you might feel irresponsible? Or what is it?

Perhaps being more so a figure of speech, just coming around to the realization that I'm not reponsible for anything.

You put it much more elegantly than I could, there was a nagging feeling that I seemed to have responsibility, then I realized that of course there's no 'I' to be responsible for anything. It seems like that tricky little 'I' still wants to hold on to some things.

Kind of a relief to see that though, like I dropped more baggage.

[Anastacia42]

Good!

There's no "I" to hold onto anything. It just never existed. That's all in your habitual thinking. Nothing more. It is all made up. Just a habit of thinking.

Can you SEE that?

Loving,

[Humblesight7]

Can you SEE that?

Yes, I'm still dealing with the 'I' coming and going sometimes, like you said- habitual thinking.

[Anastacia42]

We're still waiting for a couple mote guides to read your answers. This can take a while.

Meanwhile, when you saw that Santa Claus was just a man in a red suit, did you have to see him put it on and take it off several times before you believed he was just a man?

Loving

[Humblesight7]

Meanwhile, when you saw that Santa Claus was just a man in a red suit, did you have to see him put it on and take it off several times before you believed he was just a man?

Ha, no. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

[Anastacia42]

Same here.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

There were no more questions. Our conversation here is complete.

The below some additional resources.

One model for looking at this is called Ten Fetters. At LU we only cover the first 3. There are groups outside of LU. some led by LU guides. that take it further.

Here is a list of the Fetters;:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)

and some resources:

Christiana Michelberger
https://findingawakening.com/about/

Vince Shubert

📍Check your local time: www.worldtimebuddy.com
⏱ Countdown timer for the next meeting on: www.wakingupwithvince.com (scroll down)
🧭 It’s always the same Zoom link; you can arrive late or leave early.
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

Vince also has a YouTube Channel


Todd & Pernille Lent Damore

They're moving to Spain & will be offline for about 6 months, but both have videos on YouTube.

Yes, we still have a monthly Inquiry Group that's free, and that they are welcome to join.
We also have our Discord community which is free too.

Write to:
unfetteredmindfulness@gmail.com

Loving