I think I'm ready

[anonymous2012]

I've heard it said that the sense of self can be said to be the cause of most human suffering, and that is actually really starting to sink in.

It's not the "sense" of self that is the cause, but the belief in it, the identification with it. That's where the 'need' to protect it starts. The importance in how it is seen by others.

Yes, that is a more accurate wording, sense was not the right word to use.

Part of me still resists the idea that there is no self,

Ha, yes, which part ?

The part that thinks it has any amount of control. The part that is scared to give up the sense of self. The stubborn part. :)

That "I" have no control.

So how would you feel if you discovered that It NEVER did ! That It was always an illusion. That life happened just fine without it and that the 'not fine' parts were Always because of the Belief in that control ?

Guilty for the pain I have caused others. The "bad" things I have done. If there was no control, and no self there, if there was no "I" there, then there was no choice? Those things had to happen? Had to happen in that way?

What is your response when i tell you that what you are seeking is something you already Are and that there is only a split second of Recognition between your ignorance and en-light-enment ?

Frustrated. There is a pounding at the gate, but no passing through it yet.

Lunch time was spent asking "Is it credible that there is no self?". While there was the typical tangent and leading off of thoughts, "I" returned to it the question over and over, then occasionally flipping it around, "Is it credible that there IS a self?". I'm trying to push past belief, push past what I've learned, and SEE the evidence that is here. I find no evidence for a credible self, just a pattern of self-creation, of associations, of assumptions. But then I get caught up in circles of thought "This body is myself" and I argue against it, "this mind is myself" and I argue against it, it seems like I have to keep proving these on a thought level, but I think all of that is merely a distraction to keep myself from seeing the truth.

[vinceschubert]

The part that thinks it has any amount of control.

Thoughts ?
Thoughts that comprise a story of control ?

Guilty for the pain I have caused others. The "bad" things I have done.

Would you feel guilt about a branch dropping from a tree in the local park and injuring somebody ?
Why would you feel guilty it there is no I who did those things ? and if there is no I, then who is it that would feel guilty ?

if there was no "I" there, then there was no choice?

Correct !

Those things had to happen? Had to happen in that way?

That's mind involvement again. Mind obsesses about meaning. It would be more accurate to say "those things happened." "they happened that way"

This body is myself" and I argue against it, "this mind is myself" and I argue against it,

Don't try and convince yourself. A new belief is just more bullshit. No need for argument. When SEEN, all that will evaporate. Continue asking the questions, but without needing an answer. The answer is contained in the question, but allow it to come to you. Don't chase it. When asking a question, simply observe the first thoughts that arise and don't have opinions about them. Just notice them.

but I think all of that is merely a distraction to keep myself from seeing the truth.

Ah!, very likely so.

[anonymous2012]

Thoughts ?
Thoughts that comprise a story of control ?

Yes. Although it doesn't feel like a story! It's very convincing!

Would you feel guilt about a branch dropping from a tree in the local park and injuring somebody ?
Why would you feel guilty it there is no I who did those things ? and if there is no I, then who is it that would feel guilty ?

Because there is no "I" association with the tree branch ("I" had no control over the branch falling or not), and yet there still is for this body, this mind, and the actions carried out by both ("I" can choose what this body does, what this mind does). This is a good area to reflect on, this is a sticking point for "me".
I think the feelings of guilt persist because the suffering inflicted was so unnecessary, and is still assumed to be a choice made by a "me". That "I" could have chosen differently. Even if there was no real self there, wasn't the mind involved? Even if there wasn't a chooser, wasn't there a choosing?

That's mind involvement again. Mind obsesses about meaning. It would be more accurate to say "those things happened." "they happened that way"

So Hitler had to be Hitler? Jeffrey Dahmer had to be Jeffrey Dahmer? This is dangerous territory for where I am at right now, as without enlightenment, I could use that as justification for doing whatever "I" wanted and saying "Nope! 'Me' is not real! No responsibility!". Of course, I understand that would simply be the false idea of self using yet another justification for selfishness.

Don't try and convince yourself. A new belief is just more bullshit. No need for argument. When SEEN, all that will evaporate. Continue asking the questions, but without needing an answer. The answer is contained in the question, but allow it to come to you. Don't chase it. When asking a question, simply observe the first thoughts that arise and don't have opinions about them. Just notice them.

Ok, this is what will be done from now on.

[vinceschubert]

It's very convincing!

Of course. How many years of reinforcing the conditioning ?

"I" can choose what this body does, what this mind does

No you can't. It just seems that way. The mind actually claims ownership (up to 6 seconds) AFTER the choice is made by the arising dependent conditioning of the brain. (scientific fact) Have you seen the BBC video 'The Secret You'? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E ) That bit is right at the end.

suffering inflicted was so unnecessary

There is no denying the sadness for this, but... (you might be surprised at the good that came from it too)

I understand that would simply be the false idea of self using yet another justification for selfishness.

You got it !
What's happened has happened. To have opinions about it is just adding unnecessarily to it. The mind is obsessed with finding meaning in everything.

Even if there wasn't a chooser, wasn't there a choosing?

Yes choice happens, but is might be seen like the clouds choosing to drop rain. It depends on conditions. There is no morality involved.

[anonymous2012]

Damn, that is some powerful stuff.

[vinceschubert]

Yes, bask in it. Soak it in.
...and just notice responses.

[anonymous2012]

Well, the first response was to test it. Will I pick up that object with the right hand or the left hand? No, that's not a good experiment, what about...and then I realized decision making was already happening, without "me" needing to be there to do anything about it. It was an automatic response in the mind to the stimuli of your post.
The rest of the post left "me" kinda just...dumbfounded. My mind went quiet for a bit. Definitely need time to soak it in, and I will watch the BBC video as well.

[vinceschubert]

and then I realized decision making was already happening, without "me" needing to be there to do anything about it.

Excellent. Good SEEing.

The rest of the post left "me" kinda just...dumbfounded.

Another excellent. When thoughts (words) take a holiday, Reality shines through.

[anonymous2012]

There is still a pattern of self-creation happening, although it seems to be starting to fray at the edges. What is the best way to move forward at this point? Continue to ask the questions without needing an answer?

[vinceschubert]

Yes, any answers from the mind (maybe that should be ALL answers from the mind) are only ABOUT it, and are a diversion.
Thoughtless awareness improves with practice and the settling in to it is incredibly freeing. (liberating)
Don't get sucked in to measuring it by an outcome. (that can only be imagined) It has nothing to do with how "good" it is done.
Rest in IT.
Cultivate amusement when catching (ever attentive) thoughts trying to involve(interfere) and run the show. (Ha!, hello thoughts. You can have a holiday on this one. i'll summon you when you can be useful.)

[anonymous2012]

Cultivate amusement when catching (ever attentive) thoughts trying to involve(interfere) and run the show. (Ha!, hello thoughts. You can have a holiday on this one. i'll summon you when you can be useful.)

I've been working on this, but to be honest things have been busy and work and at home (new baby on the way!). I will spend my lunch time today catching thoughts trying to run the show.

[anonymous2012]

There is so much resistance going on. It seems the ego is pulling out all of the "big guns", depression, aversion, diversion, even panic attacks in the middle of the night. There is such a huge push to give up, give in, thoughts of "it's not for me" or "I can't do this".
This is normal, yes? Something to be worked through? Any suggestions? Simply observe and continue to question the validity of self?

[vinceschubert]

This is normal, yes?

Everybody has their own unique experiencing, but yes it occurs for lot's of people.
But get this !, it is a GOOD sign. It means that we are getting close and an even bigger thing to get, is that this is all your friend. It is mind (powerful thing) using variations of fear, just as it would if you went too close to the cliff face, to protect you (from the unknown)
Welcome it, in spite of the discomfort.
We are not looking to chase it away (it will evaporate of its' own accord) It IS what you are experiencing. It IS reality (not the cause of it, but the fact of it)
You will discover that you can 'feel' good about feeling unpleasant sensations - at the same time.
You have one foot through the gate. Fall forward. Open yourself. Welcome the actual, what IS.

[anonymous2012]

but yes it occurs for lot's of people.
But get this !, it is a GOOD sign.

That is good to hear. Still asking if it is plausible that a self truly exists, or ever existed. Thinking back over "my" life and asking that question is...challenging. So hard to let go of this association with the "manager", the "doer".

[vinceschubert]

So hard to let go of this association with the "manager", the "doer".

Yes, especially in this day and age where individualism has achieved a god like status. The mind may also be 'threatened' by a belief that it will be exterminated. This of course, wont happen. In fact it will continue do do it's 'thing' but without the belief that it is You. It does have uses.
A help to SEE that it is not required for daily life (except where it has legitimate value) is to consider all of the things that occur automatically.
You drive without mind often. Your bodily functions all occur automatically. You walk and avoid obstacles without it.
Think of several more things that don't require mind intervention to happen perfectly.