Another guide please

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

It's like I have times when there is simply no effort made and instead a relaxing into hearing, or seeing, or moving.

That's good. Only the hearing. Only the seeing. Only the moving, unless thought chimes in with a comment about a 'self' that 'does' these things?

. but I cannot say that I actually found that self.
To be honest, not sure entirely where to look!

Well, let's look at how things happen, how 'choices' and 'decisions' are made. It is seem that there is no 'separate self' making senses happen. But what if 'I decide' to go drive to the shops? It appears that a decision has been made because there is an announcement in thought 'I think I'll go to the shops'. Or at least that is how it seems. But observe this type of situation. Isn't it that a decision to drive to the shops happens without a 'self' making that decision? And the thought of 'I will drive to the shops' is simply an announcement in which 'I' is credited with having 'decided'on a course of action?

On another occasion perhaps thoughts are quiet or preoccupied with a daydream or whatever...somehow we are inside the car with engine the switched on and driving into the next street before it has been realised that anything has been ' decided'? That this is what is happening a lot of the time?

Try this out Mark. Does 'a person' decide or choose every detail of how the driving will happen or do many movements happen automatically? Is there a 'self' 'deciding' each subsequent manoeuvre or do these just flow?


Best wishes,

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,

there are a couple of things today - 1st I will comment on the previous post then I need to talk about the day that has happened today.

what if 'I decide' to go drive to the shops? It appears that a decision has been made because there is an announcement in thought 'I think I'll go to the shops'. Or at least that is how it seems. But observe this type of situation. Isn't it that a decision to drive to the shops happens without a 'self' making that decision?

I can understand this and the explanation you have given seems plausable. However, I have not yet 'caught' a live example of this or something similar. In the main that is because I have not caught such obvious thoughts as 'I think I'll go to the shops', although I'm sure something will present itself.

Try this out Mark. Does 'a person' decide or choose every detail of how the driving will happen or do many movements happen automatically? Is there a 'self' 'deciding' each subsequent manoeuvre or do these just flow?

Hmm. This one. Manouveres just flow. However, surely all it proves is that behaviour practiced enough becomes automatic? In the above quote it seems to be assumed that, if cannot find a self doing each precise movement, then therefore there is no self?
But .... a lot of 'self' surely operates on an automatic, subconscious basis. This is the same for breathing etc, otherwise, if we had to be conscious for all of this, there would never be anything done!

I'm not saying it proves there IS a self either. just that this is not proof for me of a 'no self.'

The other thing that's happened today. The company I was working for has gone into liquidation, there is no money to be paid, I was owed money from right back into December and I'm not going to get any of it.
All the feelings today (ranging from anger and absolute rage through to complete sadness and desolation) definitely feel as though they have been happening to someone - to a 'me'.
My worst fear is that I will be made homeless, I am behind on rent and now have no means of paying any. Now, this is where the 'no self' is put to the test for me and I have to say, I'm coming down firmly on the side of there is a self!
That is, it will be no consolation to have an appreciation that it is really happening to 'no one' when 'I' am sitting on a freezing pavement, shivering, with no home, no money and no income!

I hope that won't happen and I am aware I am probably ranting, however, this is live for me today - this is what is happening - so I thought I would bring it in.

Thanks Jon, not expecting you to solve anything here!
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

I'm really sorry to hear your news. I will reply later today.

Jon.

[JonathanR]

HI Mark,

I completely understand your feelings in your current situation. By any satndards you have been left in the lurch and it's not easy to put straight. May you find a way through this without too much pain and anxiety.

Continuing with our thread,

I can understand this and the explanation you have given seems plausable. However, I have not yet 'caught' a live example of this or something similar. In the main that is because I have not caught such obvious thoughts as 'I think I'll go to the shops', although I'm sure something will present itself.

It is worth looking at this sort of 'automatic' experience closely. But no, probably the very thought 'I think I'll go to the shops' won't happen exactly like that. That's a characature of whatever thought might pop up to announce ownership...it may not come in words, it might be an image or just a supposition that is noticed.

This is the same for breathing etc, otherwise, if we had to be conscious for all of this, there would never be anything done!

Well yes... if we had to be conscious for all of this. If it all required thinking and planning and controlling. But isn't that the conventional picture of what the 'self does'? It is ofen said 'I do the washing up' but that can be largely automatic can't it? And where then is the 'self' that 'does' the washing up?

I'm not saying it proves there IS a self either. just that this is not proof for me of a 'no self.'

I'm not in the business of trying to persuade you either way. My job will have failed if all I do is manage to persuade.

All the feelings today (ranging from anger and absolute rage through to complete sadness and desolation) definitely feel as though they have been happening to someone - to a 'me'.
My worst fear is that I will be made homeless, I am behind on rent and now have no means of paying any. Now, this is where the 'no self' is put to the test for me and I have to say, I'm coming down firmly on the side of there is a self!

Completely understandable. Even if 'no self' is clearly seen this situation is very real and many thoughts about it are probably inevitable. Who knows, perhaps 'self' originated in our ancestors so that these very kinds of emergencies could be dealt with?

That is, it will be no consolation to have an appreciation that it is really happening to 'no one' when 'I' am sitting on a freezing pavement, shivering, with no home, no money and no income!

I disagree. That would be awful and needs to be avoided but let's imagine that that did happen. If there were the perception that there is really no 'me' , no 'Mark' to 'get hurt', in spite of the difficulties being encountered by the body, that could make for a more dynamic situation. For example, depression about it might not be inevitable. Even that could be very useful.

Of course this is entirely hypothetical, but isn't any thought-story about the future?

Wishing you all the best,

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,

this is what I am focusing on for the time being and will report when have some detail:

It is worth looking at this sort of 'automatic' experience closely. But no, probably the very thought 'I think I'll go to the shops' won't happen exactly like that.

thanks for your other comments, not sure I understand them, trust it will make sense when I see through the illusion of self - this bit I mean:

If there were the perception that there is really no 'me' , no 'Mark' to 'get hurt', in spite of the difficulties being encountered by the body, that could make for a more dynamic situation.

speak soon,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

this is what I am focusing on for the time being and will report when have some detail:

It is worth looking at this sort of 'automatic' experience closely. But no, probably the very thought 'I think I'll go to the shops' won't happen exactly like that.

Ok, that sounds good. Let me know.

About my other remarks, please ignore these if they made no sense or were not helpful. Do you feel that you might benefit by a break from this guiding to help you to concentrate on the practicalities of your current circumstances for a while? If so let me know.

Best wishes,

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,
You were helpful, you made several comments and it was only that one that was picked up on (and only then because I am not quite 'there'!). I feel very supported by you and have done throughout this process.

I have had a beak today. Maybe tomorrow also but really I want to keep this going. It is, however, difficult to keep the focus on this with so much other stuff going around, my mood in particular has been knocked and it is difficult at present to keep positive. I am simply trying to experience all that comes, trying not to read too much into it - so there is this depressed mood descending for a while, that's all it is.

If I had a break for a couple of days could we pick straight back up again? And how would that work - would I just find this thread on whatever page it was on and continue to post as normal?

thanks, I appreciate your understanding and your support,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hello Mark,

I won't use the quote thingy today.

It's great that you want to go on with this inquiry. I wasn't meaning to suggest a long break but maybe a few days if that would be helpful

My impression is that you have been doing well with this 'no self' business. Continuity or momentum is a good thing but sometimes big events just happen and have to be attended to.

If you do feel the need for a few days 'off' that's fine and may even help. I'll leave the decision to you but when you post again our thread will in any case jump to the top of page 1. Where I'm bound to see it.


All the best,

Jon.

[marka]

thanks Jon. look out for my post on Friday,
take care,
Mark

[JonathanR]

will do Mark,

take care.

Jon

[marka]

Hi Jon,

going to take a few more days. Been a bit unwell again. I'm ok though and will be back on Monday.

Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

Ok, thank you for letting me know, Get better. I may not reply on Monday as I am frantically busy that day but will reply on Tuesday,

All the best,

Jon

[marka]

Hi Jon,

I'm back now. Thanks for the patience and understanding.

We got to whether there was a doer and your helpful explanation of how this was assumed to work conventionally. This led to choice, whether or not there was a 'me' or 'I' that made decisions.
Please can we continue with this, maybe help me focus again?

Or, maybe get anything out of my experience over the last week or two, if you think there may be something of relevance there?


Thanks,

Mark

oh, no worries if you're too busy today.

[JonathanR]

Hello Mark,

Finally I'm able to write to you. (Been very busy myself too). Hope things are improving for you?


We reached this stage, didn't we?

Try this out Mark. Does 'a person' decide or choose every detail of how the driving will happen or do many movements happen automatically? Is there a 'self' 'deciding' each subsequent manoeuvre or do these just flow?


Hmm. This one. Manouveres just flow. However, surely all it proves is that behaviour practiced enough becomes automatic? In the above quote it seems to be assumed that, if cannot find a self doing each precise movement, then therefore there is no self?
But .... a lot of 'self' surely operates on an automatic, subconscious basis. This is the same for breathing etc, otherwise, if we had to be conscious for all of this, there would never be anything done!

I'm not saying it proves there IS a self either. just that this is not proof for me of a 'no self.'

I asked you to look at driving. Could have pointed towards other things that we do, such as getting up and going and making a cup of tea. Try that actually. Once you've gone through the actual business of making a cup of tea or coffee for yourself and you are sitting down again, answer the following questions ...(FOR BEST RESULTS DO THIS BEFORE LOOKING AT THE QUESTIONS)...

DId 'a person', 'me' get up and go to the kettle?
Was there an actual decision at any point to fill the kettle or switch it on or did this all flow?
Tea or coffee may have been 'chosen'. Was there an actual chooser or did 'choice' just happen without 'someone choosing'?

I'm not saying it proves there IS a self either. just that this is not proof for me of a 'no self.

Neither the driving nor the tea-making are intended to try to persuade you that there isn't a 'self'. My purpose is not to persuade or prove anything. It is only possible to look at 'how things happen', decision, choice, free will, if it is already noticed that 'self' is illusory.

If it is believed that 'self' is an actual entity or controler of some sort that 'objectively exists' pulling strings from behind the scenes, rather than simply an idea that emerges from thought, then it's imposible to consider questions of 'choice', 'free will' and 'decision'. Do you see why?

To try to use the absence of 'chooser' or 'decider' as a way to prove 'no self' would be futile becasue where there is still a belief in a separate self, that 'self' will appear to be taking all sorts of decisions and making choices, won't it?

Is there a 'self' that 'makes tea'?

Best wishes,

Jon

[marka]

Hi Jon,

I had just literally made a cup of tea when I read this, great timing :)

DId 'a person', 'me' get up and go to the kettle?

Yes. It seems like it. ME got up!

Was there an actual decision at any point to fill the kettle or switch it on or did this all flow?

Hmm. Flowed. Tempting to say decisions made but doesn't seem that there were any at all.

Tea or coffee may have been 'chosen'. Was there an actual chooser or did 'choice' just happen without 'someone choosing'?

Hmm. Again, want to believe there was a chooser but actually, based on what has just happened and on what else 'I' could have chosen, I think that choice just happened without someone choosing.

Next questions:

If it is believed that 'self' is an actual entity or controler of some sort that 'objectively exists' pulling strings from behind the scenes, rather than simply an idea that emerges from thought, then it's imposible to consider questions of 'choice', 'free will' and 'decision'. Do you see why?

Because the belief will always over ride - that there is a 'someone' doing the decision making.

To try to use the absence of 'chooser' or 'decider' as a way to prove 'no self' would be futile becasue where there is still a belief in a separate self, that 'self' will appear to be taking all sorts of decisions and making choices, won't it?

Yes, because all the time thinking about it in that way (i.e. needing to prove 'no self') infers a belief in a 'self'.

Is there a 'self' that 'makes tea'?

Looked at as it happens, no, no self that makes tea.

Good to be chatting with you again,
Mark