sort of. a couple thoughts. but it's very brief. today the illusion is so heavy and I'm so tired mentally that every thought is just glued to me.Can you see what thoughts are doing to you? Even one thought?
we will see tomorrow, all questions
hug
Stream Entry
Re: Stream Entry
Hello Alan
we will see tomorrow, all questions
hug
we will see tomorrow, all questions
hug
Re: Stream Entry
ugh yes. I can see what some thoughts do to me.
I was laying my head on the desk, super tired. drained. thinking "damn, I have so many pending tasks that I haven't done! and it's... 6th august already! I said to myself I was gonna meditate all day and I'm not doing anything! like I always do! I set these impossible goals and I never follow through"
and it hit me... where did that come from? where this idea of "meditate all day" or whatever did come from? exactly. from thoughts. and I believed that. it was just a thought. and I do this with a lot of thoughts all the time. thoughts that are not realistic.
aaand back to the illusion.
I was laying my head on the desk, super tired. drained. thinking "damn, I have so many pending tasks that I haven't done! and it's... 6th august already! I said to myself I was gonna meditate all day and I'm not doing anything! like I always do! I set these impossible goals and I never follow through"
and it hit me... where did that come from? where this idea of "meditate all day" or whatever did come from? exactly. from thoughts. and I believed that. it was just a thought. and I do this with a lot of thoughts all the time. thoughts that are not realistic.
aaand back to the illusion.
Re: Stream Entry
Is this anything else other than another thought?aaand back to the illusion.
Sounds like you looked and what was happening was seen ! Good ! Just keep looking.and it hit me... where did that come from? where this idea of "meditate all day" or whatever did come from? exactly. from thoughts. and I believed that. it was just a thought. and I do this with a lot of thoughts all the time. thoughts that are not realistic.
So there are some thoughts that don't "do" to you? What distinguishes the thoughts that "do" and don't "do"?I can see what some thoughts do to me.
Hugs
Alan
Re: Stream Entry
mhm, maybe I realized something. but will need to confirm, and for that I have to wait until tomorrow.
will answers all these questions by then, because I was able to see "some of them" but...
...
give me a day
hug
will answers all these questions by then, because I was able to see "some of them" but...
...
give me a day
hug
Re: Stream Entry
(this is going to be a lot of text, sorry in advance)
[session 1]
ok. thoughts remove me from present moment.
but this needs clarification.
if we grab all channels for experience we have: senses + thoughts (but not content).
senses can't take me away from present moment, that's... paradoxical.
but thoughts cannot take me away from present neither! because it's just another channel...
it's the CONTENT of thoughts that drive me away from present moment (whatever that is)!!
point here is: it's possible to be aware of thoughts but still not be taken away from present moment. is this true?
__________________
NOW. that's great! but what about my biggest issue? which is something that doesn't happen to most people as far as I know and is what riddled me for a long time (this is one way to say """I'm unique and special""").
what about the MUSIC!? the constant music in my head that never stops!
well... I thought I had to get rid of it or something. or that it was distracting me. it annoyed me.
after all... I'm looking at thoughts... and monologue or single thoughts or stories and those are... easy to mark.
but music? is a like a LOOOOOOOOOONG big thought that never ends. so I looked at it. what is it saying? what is this?
and to be honest, I don't know! but I DO KNOW that it is neutral noise. it doesn't have a positive or negative quality. it's just... there.
and today... you know what I did? I decided to make peace with it. finally. after all these years.
the music wants to be there? perfect! I will let the music be there. no worries.
__________________
now, the important thing here... is to look at THOUGHTS! right? ok. music is there, in the background. no issue with that.
let's just wait for thoughts to come.
And now... when thoughts arrive... it's easier to LOOK at them.
And I realize... how ALL OF THEM just describe/narrate stuff that happened or "might happen".
And I see... how they are just a LAYER over... reality (or whatever they are layering onto). it's like they... mud the waters, so to speak.
for example, thoughts like "I'm hungry" "that object is nice" "it's raining" and then the stories and chain of thoughts. what purpose they serve exactly? not sure, but they seem to "distract" "me" from "something".
point is: I'm getting the hang of this "thought watching".
__________________
you are going to love this: I'm seeing thoughts, seeing how they appear... and suddenly:
I'm genuinely curious about who all this narration is for... the body does something, and then thoughts narrate that. And I'm wondering... to whom is that narration directed???
because I really want to know that. And no. "me" is not an answer anymore!
There's something here that doesn't add up! and believe me, I'm not trying to analyze this with the mind. it's something that is obviously off.
I don't even know how to explain it. But it's related to... thoughts taking ownership of an "I" which is also a thought but then there's the body but it doesn't have thoughts.... IDK. so confusing (to explain).
__________________
[session 2]
Sometimes I get in the flow of being able to watch thoughts. but sometimes don't! I can't! so in those cases, what I do is:
Acknowledge this
Slow down
And try to catch only ONE thought. the next one that appears...
so I wait there and focus on that!
(it works for when I'm having trouble, instead of getting frustrated)
__________________
Also... had this chain of thoughts
"wait, who's trying to catch thoughts?"
"ok, and who had that thought??"
When I start looking into it that's when... I REALIZE I WAS BELIEVING THAT LAST THOUGHT! (by believing it and then looking for who had that thought)
very sneaky huh?
anyways, that gave me "clarity" (best word I have for what happens) and the "thought machine" stopped for a couple seconds.
it's a strange feeling, like suddenly waking up for a short while. it's some kind of a... relaxation.
this is starting to look like a game! and I like that.
__________________
Let's answer your questions!
and yes, this works.
hug
[session 1]
ok. thoughts remove me from present moment.
but this needs clarification.
if we grab all channels for experience we have: senses + thoughts (but not content).
senses can't take me away from present moment, that's... paradoxical.
but thoughts cannot take me away from present neither! because it's just another channel...
it's the CONTENT of thoughts that drive me away from present moment (whatever that is)!!
point here is: it's possible to be aware of thoughts but still not be taken away from present moment. is this true?
__________________
NOW. that's great! but what about my biggest issue? which is something that doesn't happen to most people as far as I know and is what riddled me for a long time (this is one way to say """I'm unique and special""").
what about the MUSIC!? the constant music in my head that never stops!
well... I thought I had to get rid of it or something. or that it was distracting me. it annoyed me.
after all... I'm looking at thoughts... and monologue or single thoughts or stories and those are... easy to mark.
but music? is a like a LOOOOOOOOOONG big thought that never ends. so I looked at it. what is it saying? what is this?
and to be honest, I don't know! but I DO KNOW that it is neutral noise. it doesn't have a positive or negative quality. it's just... there.
and today... you know what I did? I decided to make peace with it. finally. after all these years.
the music wants to be there? perfect! I will let the music be there. no worries.
__________________
now, the important thing here... is to look at THOUGHTS! right? ok. music is there, in the background. no issue with that.
let's just wait for thoughts to come.
And now... when thoughts arrive... it's easier to LOOK at them.
And I realize... how ALL OF THEM just describe/narrate stuff that happened or "might happen".
And I see... how they are just a LAYER over... reality (or whatever they are layering onto). it's like they... mud the waters, so to speak.
for example, thoughts like "I'm hungry" "that object is nice" "it's raining" and then the stories and chain of thoughts. what purpose they serve exactly? not sure, but they seem to "distract" "me" from "something".
point is: I'm getting the hang of this "thought watching".
__________________
you are going to love this: I'm seeing thoughts, seeing how they appear... and suddenly:
I'm genuinely curious about who all this narration is for... the body does something, and then thoughts narrate that. And I'm wondering... to whom is that narration directed???
because I really want to know that. And no. "me" is not an answer anymore!
There's something here that doesn't add up! and believe me, I'm not trying to analyze this with the mind. it's something that is obviously off.
I don't even know how to explain it. But it's related to... thoughts taking ownership of an "I" which is also a thought but then there's the body but it doesn't have thoughts.... IDK. so confusing (to explain).
__________________
[session 2]
Sometimes I get in the flow of being able to watch thoughts. but sometimes don't! I can't! so in those cases, what I do is:
Acknowledge this
Slow down
And try to catch only ONE thought. the next one that appears...
so I wait there and focus on that!
(it works for when I'm having trouble, instead of getting frustrated)
__________________
Also... had this chain of thoughts
"wait, who's trying to catch thoughts?"
"ok, and who had that thought??"
When I start looking into it that's when... I REALIZE I WAS BELIEVING THAT LAST THOUGHT! (by believing it and then looking for who had that thought)
very sneaky huh?
anyways, that gave me "clarity" (best word I have for what happens) and the "thought machine" stopped for a couple seconds.
it's a strange feeling, like suddenly waking up for a short while. it's some kind of a... relaxation.
this is starting to look like a game! and I like that.
__________________
Let's answer your questions!
yes. they seem to distract me from something. but not sure what from.Can you see what thoughts are doing to you? Even one thought?
did not see the white, was looking at the words.As you are reading this have you even recognized the white on which the words appear or are you fixed on the words themselves? Or have you been so concentrating (doing) on the words (thoughts) that white was not noticed until it was pointed out?
nothing happens, but that's because I'm exhausted right now. but I guess you were trying to help me to anchor on vision to be able to watch thoughts :)What happens when you let your eyes gently rest on the white and let your attention be absorbed in it and just let thoughts float by?
and yes, this works.
when I had that brief clarity moment... it probably felt like this. there wasn't any doing. like something in my mind relaxed for a short time.Similarly just let your attention rest on the "space" between thoughts - just let it be seen, let it be genuinely noticed in the most relaxed way. And just rest there.
Is there any doing in this?
yes, it's a thoughtIs this anything else other than another thought?aaand back to the illusion.
all thoughts affect me! they all divert my attention from... somethingSo there are some thoughts that don't "do" to you? What distinguishes the thoughts that "do" and don't "do"?I can see what some thoughts do to me.
hug
Re: Stream Entry
Loved it Nicholas. Some beautiful recognitions in what you write(this is going to be a lot of text, sorry in advance)
I'll respond with invitations to lookit's possible to be aware of thoughts but still not be taken away from present moment. is this true?
What is this that is labelled the "present moment"? Is it just pointing to an aspect of time? Or is it "something else" "something" far vaster and indescribable?
Is there anything real other than the present moment?
Is the "present moment" just another label, another way of using words / concepts that points to the mystery of what you actually are?
When you go to a theatre to enjoy a movie, are you actually taken away form the theatre when you get engrossed in a the movie?
Now ask yourself the question that you asked me again? What do you answer?
Just stay with that and see what happens!There's something here that doesn't add up! and believe me, I'm not trying to analyze this with the mind. it's something that is obviously off.
I don't even know how to explain it. But it's related to... thoughts taking ownership of an "I" which is also a thought but then there's the body but it doesn't have thoughts.... IDK. so confusing (to explain).
Feel in to this. It's not something (some thing) and it's not nothing (no thing) but that "it" is cannot be deniedall thoughts affect me! they all divert my attention from... something
Does this apparently non-nonsensical statement resonate at all?
Hugs
Alan
Re: Stream Entry
today's log
+ what I've been doing is letting the music play, then just watch thoughts. 90% of the time is spent watching thoughts that passed and I already engaged with, but that's no problem! because at least "I'm aware that I just believed in a thought just a second ago". so I do that and try to catch it faster and faster.
+ I'm starting to increase my "looking times" more and more (as in, I'm starting to naturally dedicate more and more time into this because it's... kinda fun?)
+ Feeling hunger then "I'm hungry" -> layering
looking at my cat then "she's beautiful" -> layering (am I believing the thought or what I see? is the thought necessary?)
"maybe I should do this all the time" -> believing this thought means falling again because "I am following an order".
it's like EVERY thought is an opportunity to LOOK
ok, I don't have to believe/follow every thought that appears. I have to look with skepticism.
(but that in itself is also a thought)
there seems to be a trap here. because every one of these commands need... "me" to execute them.
...ah! doesn't matter. if I treat that as another thought... nothing needs to be done other than continue looking.
+ becoming more aware of how "believing a thought" feels.
not only believing, but feeling the "mind identification" with it. that feeling/belief of "yes, I created that thought"
+ interesting side effect: thoughts are stressing me less
+ BIG REALIZATION: some time ago I read an exercise by Angelo Dilullo developed to "wake up".
one of the steps was something along the lines of "there's a thought referring to me, but there's a also a 'me' who is interested in this thought" and then trying to feel into that "me" who is interested in the thought.
I was never sure what he meant. but today... watching thoughts, I felt it! I felt that. now I know what he means! and when this happened I started talking aloud in the street (no one was near haha) "OH! NOW I GET IT! THIS IS WHAT ANGELO MEANT! WOW! FINALLY!"
it was only a brief second, but it was.... ah! wow.
+ also getting less tired doing this... "work"!
+ and finally... there's a massive difference in how I used to approach this work just... *checks thread* ¡¡¡¡9 days ago!!!!
(oh my god, Alan you've been so patient with me, I can't believe it! what a lovely soul you are)
I remember being frustrated by the music and also trying to shut down thoughts and "force" myself to focus on senses. of course... did not work, made me tired fast and it was... too tense!
...
your questions
hug
+ what I've been doing is letting the music play, then just watch thoughts. 90% of the time is spent watching thoughts that passed and I already engaged with, but that's no problem! because at least "I'm aware that I just believed in a thought just a second ago". so I do that and try to catch it faster and faster.
+ I'm starting to increase my "looking times" more and more (as in, I'm starting to naturally dedicate more and more time into this because it's... kinda fun?)
+ Feeling hunger then "I'm hungry" -> layering
looking at my cat then "she's beautiful" -> layering (am I believing the thought or what I see? is the thought necessary?)
"maybe I should do this all the time" -> believing this thought means falling again because "I am following an order".
it's like EVERY thought is an opportunity to LOOK
ok, I don't have to believe/follow every thought that appears. I have to look with skepticism.
(but that in itself is also a thought)
there seems to be a trap here. because every one of these commands need... "me" to execute them.
...ah! doesn't matter. if I treat that as another thought... nothing needs to be done other than continue looking.
+ becoming more aware of how "believing a thought" feels.
not only believing, but feeling the "mind identification" with it. that feeling/belief of "yes, I created that thought"
+ interesting side effect: thoughts are stressing me less
+ BIG REALIZATION: some time ago I read an exercise by Angelo Dilullo developed to "wake up".
one of the steps was something along the lines of "there's a thought referring to me, but there's a also a 'me' who is interested in this thought" and then trying to feel into that "me" who is interested in the thought.
I was never sure what he meant. but today... watching thoughts, I felt it! I felt that. now I know what he means! and when this happened I started talking aloud in the street (no one was near haha) "OH! NOW I GET IT! THIS IS WHAT ANGELO MEANT! WOW! FINALLY!"
it was only a brief second, but it was.... ah! wow.
+ also getting less tired doing this... "work"!
+ and finally... there's a massive difference in how I used to approach this work just... *checks thread* ¡¡¡¡9 days ago!!!!
(oh my god, Alan you've been so patient with me, I can't believe it! what a lovely soul you are)
I remember being frustrated by the music and also trying to shut down thoughts and "force" myself to focus on senses. of course... did not work, made me tired fast and it was... too tense!
...
your questions
I don't know! to be honest, I really don't know!I'll respond with invitations to lookit's possible to be aware of thoughts but still not be taken away from present moment. is this true?
What is this that is labelled the "present moment"? Is it just pointing to an aspect of time? Or is it "something else" "something" far vaster and indescribable?
don't think so!Is there anything real other than the present moment?
it is another label, yes. am I the present moment? don't know! hahaIs the "present moment" just another label, another way of using words / concepts that points to the mystery of what you actually are?
nop!When you go to a theatre to enjoy a movie, are you actually taken away form the theatre when you get engrossed in a the movie?
Now ask yourself the question that you asked me again? What do you answer?
I can't answer this! I don't know what is this "present moment".it's possible to be aware of thoughts but still not be taken away from present moment. is this true?
YES, of course it resonates. I saw it briefly, I felt it. it's... can't be described. it feels like... magic? who knows!Feel in to this. It's not something (some thing) and it's not nothing (no thing) but that "it" is cannot be deniedall thoughts affect me! they all divert my attention from... something
Does this apparently non-nonsensical statement resonate at all?
hug
Re: Stream Entry
I would have loved to have been silently there with you and listening to you !!!I was never sure what he meant. but today... watching thoughts, I felt it! I felt that. now I know what he means! and when this happened I started talking aloud in the street (no one was near haha) "OH! NOW I GET IT! THIS IS WHAT ANGELO MEANT! WOW! FINALLY!"
And now when you read this ......
Once you see it you can't unsee it !!
How does that feel Mariano?
Love the way you put work into quote marks. This now becomes a way of life.+ also getting less tired doing this... "work"!
Like anything that requires "unlearning" of an old habit. At first you have to work at it then one day you realize that its simply how you are now living.
And I feel the freedom in your response here. That's the truth - nothing real can actually be truly described.I don't know! to be honest, I really don't know!
"I don't know" is such relief to finally admit.
Beautiful !YES, of course it resonates. I saw it briefly, I felt it. it's... can't be described. it feels like... magic? who knows!
My heart sings feeling your joy !!!
Anything else that you would like to say about what is happening?
Hugs
Alan
Re: Stream Entry
today:
+ more thought watching!
+ just remembered when you talked about "putting attention on attention itself" and "trace attention back to its source"
now I know what you meant by that! still working on it of course.
+ contrary to before, right now I'm not focusing on anything (I used to focus on what I see or hear). I guess it's a soft gaze waiting for thoughts and looking at them and how I "believe" them
your questions...
I feel like "something" is approaching. I feel it all the time.
hugs
+ more thought watching!
+ just remembered when you talked about "putting attention on attention itself" and "trace attention back to its source"
now I know what you meant by that! still working on it of course.
+ contrary to before, right now I'm not focusing on anything (I used to focus on what I see or hear). I guess it's a soft gaze waiting for thoughts and looking at them and how I "believe" them
your questions...
well, something is going on! since a couple days there's a feeling, a sensation. a lightness close.I would have loved to have been silently there with you and listening to you !!!I was never sure what he meant. but today... watching thoughts, I felt it! I felt that. now I know what he means! and when this happened I started talking aloud in the street (no one was near haha) "OH! NOW I GET IT! THIS IS WHAT ANGELO MEANT! WOW! FINALLY!"
And now when you read this ......
Once you see it you can't unsee it !!
How does that feel Mariano?
I feel like "something" is approaching. I feel it all the time.
not for now!Anything else that you would like to say about what is happening?
hugs
Re: Stream Entry
Is it true for you that "work" now is more a curiosity rather than laborious effort?still working on it of course.
The "veil" of thought has been cracked. Like the sun breaking through the clouds. You're feeling, seeing what's always been there but was totally covered with thinking. So good Mariano !well, something is going on! since a couple days there's a feeling, a sensation. a lightness close.
I feel like "something" is approaching. I feel it all the time.
Just want to check ........
Have you found a separate entity you could call "me" in all of this?
Hugs
Alan
Re: Stream Entry
oh yeah!Is it true for you that "work" now is more a curiosity rather than laborious effort?
well... let's see.Just want to check ........
Have you found a separate entity you could call "me" in all of this?
"all of this"...
my procedure right now is observing thoughts. "waking up" every time they "grab me" and I'm there believing them.
this happens over and over. when I notice, I just "notice that I noticed" and then keep on the lookout for thoughts.
sometimes I smile after a thought has grabbed my attention without me noticing. funny because just days ago I would get super frustrated. also funny because I don't lose my attention for too long, it's always less than 3 seconds.
now, what I'm trying to do here, is to observe that exact moment a thought grabs my attention and the "believing" is activated.
because in my experience, this happens extremely quick, but when it happens and I manage to see that "activation"... it seems to look like a "point".
I don't know how to explain this. but it's that "point" I want to investigate. because it seems that that "point" is the glue that keeps me believing every thought.
yes, I managed to SEE this point a couple times, in fact everyday I see it at least one time for at least a second or less than a second and I'm like "oh... there it is"
but it's practice! because I remember almost a week ago where I still had trouble watching thoughts! because I was tired or something like that or because "I did not know how to do it". now I can put myself in "watching mode" over and over again. and it's fun.
so, separate entity I could call "me"?
I can't answer that. answers will come from the mind. and I'm not interested in those answers anymore, what I'm interested in is... investigating that "point". because that is the glue that makes "me" believe there is a "me".
...
does this make any sense? because I swear... this has been my experience.
two hugs
Re: Stream Entry
I feel your curiosity. Let me know what you find Nicholasit seems to look like a "point".
I don't know how to explain this. but it's that "point" I want to investigate. because it seems that that "point" is the glue that keeps me believing every thought.
three hugs !!
Alan
Re: Stream Entry
Helou Alan
but!
I can't do that. I can't force the outcome of "awakening" or "stream entry" or "this".
Why?
Easy.
Trying to force an outcome or working harder means I'm believing the thought that says "I want this now, should work harder, etc"
+ instead, I decided to divide my practice in two: one hour walking and one hour sitting. perfect combo
+ today sat down 30min to meditate (watch thoughts). They seem to give me different "insights" or well, the variety in practice seems to help me.
+ did not fall asleep or get drowsy, super big win! I used to get drowsy in 10 minutes!
+ I found that, apparently, music is mantained by several small thoughts. It's hard to explain. but this long string of music seems to actually be "raised" by "several small thoughts" that keep it running (imagine that the train is the music and the rail tracks are those little thoughts). I felt that. Did not investigate too much into this, it is just something that "appeared"
+ I also had a funny sensation. I felt like a thought watching other thoughts.
+ at the end of the 30min sit... had that sensation over again of "fake thoughts". or, to put it better, every thought that appeared was arising on its own. you know how it felt? it felt like catching a little kid red-handed. because before that... thoughts appeared, I believed in them and realized a second or seconds later. but when this phenomena of "fake thought" happens... I'm able to INSTANTLY see them from the beginning and not believe in them. it's very interesting! but it only lasted a few minutes because I woke up and let myself be inmmersed in the illusion again. I say this because, in order to sustain this "meditative state"... there needs to be applied a little effort or intention.
nice day!
hugs
+ I realized I want to dedicate more time to this...I feel your curiosity. Let me know what you find Nicholas
but!
I can't do that. I can't force the outcome of "awakening" or "stream entry" or "this".
Why?
Easy.
Trying to force an outcome or working harder means I'm believing the thought that says "I want this now, should work harder, etc"
+ instead, I decided to divide my practice in two: one hour walking and one hour sitting. perfect combo
+ today sat down 30min to meditate (watch thoughts). They seem to give me different "insights" or well, the variety in practice seems to help me.
+ did not fall asleep or get drowsy, super big win! I used to get drowsy in 10 minutes!
+ I found that, apparently, music is mantained by several small thoughts. It's hard to explain. but this long string of music seems to actually be "raised" by "several small thoughts" that keep it running (imagine that the train is the music and the rail tracks are those little thoughts). I felt that. Did not investigate too much into this, it is just something that "appeared"
+ I also had a funny sensation. I felt like a thought watching other thoughts.
+ at the end of the 30min sit... had that sensation over again of "fake thoughts". or, to put it better, every thought that appeared was arising on its own. you know how it felt? it felt like catching a little kid red-handed. because before that... thoughts appeared, I believed in them and realized a second or seconds later. but when this phenomena of "fake thought" happens... I'm able to INSTANTLY see them from the beginning and not believe in them. it's very interesting! but it only lasted a few minutes because I woke up and let myself be inmmersed in the illusion again. I say this because, in order to sustain this "meditative state"... there needs to be applied a little effort or intention.
nice day!
hugs
Re: Stream Entry
Loved your report.
So is this notion of "me" - an entity separate from all of life - just a thought?
Hug
Alan
What is it that is actually knowing the experience of feeling like a thought watching other thoughts? Is that a separate entity?+ I also had a funny sensation. I felt like a thought watching other thoughts.
Interesting !
So is this notion of "me" - an entity separate from all of life - just a thought?
Hug
Alan
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