Re: Time to see through the illusion
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:35 am
You're right. That's hilarious.
Tell me how it FEELS to SEE there is no self.
Loving,
Tell me how it FEELS to SEE there is no self.
Loving,
Liberation Unleashed Forum The Gate
https://liberationunleashed.com:443/nation/
https://liberationunleashed.com:443/nation/viewtopic.php?t=8350
Well, most of the time it's more of a background awareness throughout the day. But if I intently LOOK, for instance, what just happened now was that I "entered' that SEEing state" for lack of a better term, (I guess what it really is is just remembering to notice that there is no self there and Looking slightly inward) and things felt a little more 3-dimensional, if that makes sense. Not visually, but the way they're represented in awareness. A little more alive and a tad more vibrant. But really subtle. And there was a bit of that giddy, laughing feeling bubbling up. But as soon as it did, thinking jumped in to label everything so I could report it back to you, and that state suffocated immediately.Tell me how it FEELS to SEE there is no self.
A little more alive and a tad more vibrant. But really subtle. And there was a bit of that giddy, laughing feeling bubbling up.
Yes, all of that sounds Ike SEEING.there was a brightening in the visual field, an openness and a little lightness in the body, more of that giddiness rising
But as soon as it did, thinking jumped in to label everything so I could report it back to you, and that state suffocated immediately.
No, not necessary. Just let reality in. Stop arguing for a myth. You say you're so skeptical? Then how have you been so fooled for so long?Is a prolongation of that state necessary to lasting stability? At least at first?
Would it help to concentrate harder on one aspect of it?
The presence of the thoughts isn't really the problem. It's the way they instantly affect and derail mental/physical states. Which now that I say it, is really only a problem if there's clinging to expectations of wanting positive states and recoiling from others. So it really doesn't matter.What does it matter if thoughts arise? So what?
Only in concepts. Webs of sensations knitted together with self-referential thoughts that help to create or enhance the illusion, but an "I" doesn't actually have any independent existence. And no, there never was one. Just beliefs appearing about one.Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Haha, no. Depending on which post-LU person I hear or read speak about it, sometimes it sounds like to be Through the Gate there needs to be a 24/7 awareness/remembering of the lack of self. But others make it sound like it's only a small step above conceptual knowledge.Can anything really change that? Even if it isn't immediately in Awareness?
LOL, no. Again, I keep questioning what level of irrevocable SEEing, or changes in mental habits and patterns, and conviction of what IS, is really considered "Awakening" in this context. In the Finding Awakening book there was the quote that "the sense of 'me' can no longer be produced". But I've heard so many other people say that they feel exactly like they did before, "me feeling" and all. They just don't believe it anymore.Santa put his suit back on - so what? Does that change the fact that he's just a guy dressed up in a suit?
I'll try!Sure, others struggle with doubt. But everyone is different. Stop comparing for a while.
I suspect the question was mostly rhetorical, but when I read it, what appeared was that there is a tiny part of 'me,' after all of this, that is still skeptical that I can fully wake up.Stop arguing for a myth. You say you're so skeptical? Then how have you been so fooled for so long?
Right. You're already seeing & you've been stuck in expectations for weeks & weeks.really only a problem if there's clinging to expectations of wanting positive states and recoiling from others.
None. Yes. No.If those descriptions sound like SEEing, how much is SEEing defined by physical/perceptual states? If thoughts come in and pop those feelings, am I still SEEing? Is constant SEEing really a part of being Awake?
Then you are already seeing.Only in concepts. Webs of sensations knitted together with self-referential thoughts that help to create or enhance the illusion, but an "I" doesn't actually have any independent existence. And no, there never was one. Just beliefs appearing about one.
Yes. I've told you the same thing. Long ago.many of the feelings and habits of self, and the acting as though we have free will even knowing that we don't, can take a long while to gradually melt away, even after going through the Gate.
Only the remaining fetters. We don't guide those here.when I SEE, but then it collapses back to the normal feeling of "me-ing", I figure there must be another step left to take.
You've SEEN. You can even SEE at will. It will not be some permanent state at this point. Maybe after all 10 Fetters drop. We don't go into that here.I keep dropping into the LOOKing for a few moments, and there is an instant bit of levity and brightening. Like it's always there as soon as I tune into it. But there needs to be remembering to shut up and LOOK for it to appear.
I have heard that, and to be honest, my dealing with negative states and unskillful reactions to emotions (to use a Buddhist term) has been pretty good lately. Someone cuts me off in traffic and there's a quick flare where an obscenity is muttered, but then I snicker and laugh about it a second later. It's like a match head igniting and then blowing right out. There have been a few more anxieties that have been rising up throughout the day, but I look at the physical sensations and let them pass. And they do quite quickly.There will always be negative & painful states. They don't ever go away. How you view them can shift, but we do not guide to that at LU.
I did read G.G. but the point that stuck out most in memory was the vividness and certainty of the SEEing when the people finally got it. Which is has been the broth of my expectation soup.Didn't you read Gateless Gatecrashers and/ or Liberation Unleashed?
I guess I was expecting more solidity after the first stage.It will not be some permanent state at this point. Maybe after all 10 Fetters drop.
It's not really an "I". It's the same feeling of doerless doing that comes with the hand-flipping exercise. There's an impulse to do it that just arises, and then it happens.WHO is this "I" that drops in or tunes in? Where is that? in Direct Experience?
I don't know. I guess for a while? It's been more of a gradual shift rather than a switch clicking on. And this SEEing is so close to things I've experienced in the past through meditation that I didn't think it was IT. Which come to think of it, those bliss days I had after the meditation retreat last May might have been the big shift, but it wasn't really framed that way. It felt like this SEEing only a hundred times stronger. But because it was a spontaneously occurring event, I didn't associate it with a realization about no-self. It just seemed like a strange, but partially anticipated, by-product of the retreat.How long have you been seeing & experiencing the lightness of the truth of no self?
I don't think I've ever wanted to retain it. Since my teens I've been trying to get rid of it any way possible. The whole reason I came here was out of the desperation of having failed at it for decades. That said, there are personality traits that I currently have which I hope will continue because they seem to be well-adapted for the society I live in.Do you still want to retain your sense of individual identity, your “me? And if so, why?
this SEEing is so close to things I've experienced in the past through meditation that I didn't think it was IT. Which come to think of it, those bliss days I had after the meditation retreat last May might have been the big shift, but it wasn't really framed that way.
No, there is no stable, abiding "I" anywhere to be found, nor could there ever have been one.1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Just sitting here, the feeling of "self" or "me-ness" is really a combination of physical tensions and other sensations in my face and torso, coupled with self-referencing thoughts (including memory thoughts) all knitting together a net that is perceived as the illusory sense of "I".2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
When I look for the sense of me, the feeling vanishes, and in its place there is a sense of internal opening. It's a very subtle shift in perception where the visual field brightens (even with eyes closed,) and things feel a tad more vibrant and alive. There is often a little grin that appears, and sometimes a light bubbling of giddiness. Like a gentle effervescence. The biggest difference is a temporary quieting of thought where everything is able to just appear as it is without constant conceptualizing and narration.3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
This is a tricky question. It's come to light recently that I probably started SEEing back in May when I had a huge blissful awakening type of experience following a five-day meditation retreat. The thing was, the bliss and vibrancy and everything happened spontaneously walking outside on my street. If it had been preceded by a trigger statement about there not being a self, it would've been much more obvious to me at the time. (Though of course in retrospect, the whole retreat was, at its core, an effort to provoke exactly that realization, so... duh!)4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It initially feels like I'm choosing something, but when really observed, the decision has been made well before I'm consciously aware of it. Everything is happening by unconscious processes and the thinking mind takes ownership of the choice with post-hoc rationalizations.5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Similar to decision, "I" don't know when the intention to do something really begins. Words keep appearing on this screen because there is some sort of internal intention to answer these questions, but I have no idea how it's happening, or how to influence what the words will be. Most of my life doesn't even feel like I am trying to exercise will or intention. It seems like autopilot even without close scrutiny. And when there is actual LOOKing for it, it's clear that the feeling of intention arises after the action is happening or has happened.Describe intention & give examples from experience.
I haven't believed in free will for years, initially not from DE, but because it's obvious that we didn't choose our DNA, families, living conditions, etc. And that everything is dependent upon, and influenced by, the state of every other thing in the universe, going back to whatever came before the big bang.Describe free will & give examples from experience.
I feel like a bit of a broken record, but related to the previous few questions, who is there to choose? Choices and decisions arise from somewhere in the subconscious of the brain, and then some other thinking bit comes online after to take credit for something it had nothing to do with. If I try to choose which mug to drink from, the arm is already reaching out to one of them before I have the idea of which it should go for.Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Again, essentially the same as the previous answers, control is an illusion. Things happen, the brain sometimes convinces itself that it had control and got what it wanted even though it had nothing to do with it. Again, since it's right in front of me, who is controlling the hands typing these words? In my DE, everything just appears.Describe control & give examples from experience.
This is another tricky question. From DE, I have no idea how anything happens. Things appear, something becomes aware of it an instant later, and then thinking judges it, takes credit for it, etc. But the happenings just happen. As far as how it works, I will leave that to the neuroscientists. I've heard a lot of very plausible explanations of how the brain makes predictions, then choices, then creates our own versions of "reality", and fabricates the illusion of self. But it's all borrowed knowledge for me. I have no way to verify it, so I'll refrain from hypothesizing anything further.What makes things happen? How does it work?
With no free will, and no individual self, who could be responsible for anything? The feeling of responsibility and guilt for unskillful actions still arises. But it can be seen through as soon as it's Looked into. I'm certainly not responsible for this SEEing. It's been a long road of tons of influences (some beneficial, some that were more like barriers) that all reconditioned the brain responses that led to this change of perception. But it definitely wasn't "my" doing or else it would've been done decades ago!What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
It's okay.Sorry, Stacy!
In my experience the sense of self seems to arise in conjunction with thinking. If thinking pauses, and everything is simply as it is, there is no feeling of self present. Even with the same physical sensations that are usually associated with "me" appearing. But when that state constricts, the feeling of "being a self again" seems to coincide with self-reflexive thinking, judging, or analyzing of the experience or other arising sensations. It's a familiar story that pops back online. Sort of like an actor putting on a costume and makeup to become a different character. Only this is so subtle and persistent that it's rarely noticed.2. ... when it starts ... ?
I've heard that it develops around 2-3 years of age, but I don't have a personal experience to confirm or dispute that. As far as I can remember (and with memory being as slippery and faulty as it is, I don't know how trustworthy this is) "I've" felt like the same-ish "me" witness my whole life. Personality traits, interests, aversions, beliefs, etc. have all changed countless times throughout the years. But the feeling of being the I/self/knowing witness of everything has stayed pretty consistent. At least until it was looked for.Another aspect of this question is about when in our lives does this develop?