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Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:35 am
by Anastacia42
You're right. That's hilarious.

Tell me how it FEELS to SEE there is no self.

Loving,

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:07 am
by vegansatori
Tell me how it FEELS to SEE there is no self.
Well, most of the time it's more of a background awareness throughout the day. But if I intently LOOK, for instance, what just happened now was that I "entered' that SEEing state" for lack of a better term, (I guess what it really is is just remembering to notice that there is no self there and Looking slightly inward) and things felt a little more 3-dimensional, if that makes sense. Not visually, but the way they're represented in awareness. A little more alive and a tad more vibrant. But really subtle. And there was a bit of that giddy, laughing feeling bubbling up. But as soon as it did, thinking jumped in to label everything so I could report it back to you, and that state suffocated immediately.

It's like the "witness/reporter" thoughts redirect the focus and bring a closed, heaviness back to awareness, or whatever you want to call it.

Do other people report that problem too?

I just tried it again, but tried not to take mental notes of anything while it was happening. I closed my eyes to limit distractions, and there was a brightening in the visual field, an openness and a little lightness in the body, more of that giddiness rising, and then I crashed, either just before or after other thoughts intruded.

I know no states are permanent or stable, but is it normal to have it feel so tenuous? It feels like the early stages of rocket tests where every time they lift off they get a little further into the air before exploding. Or an almost-sneeze that peters out just before it happens.

Is a prolongation of that state necessary to lasting stability? At least at first?

Would it help to concentrate harder on one aspect of it?

Thanks much!
-Todd

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:01 am
by Anastacia42
Hi Todd,
A little more alive and a tad more vibrant. But really subtle. And there was a bit of that giddy, laughing feeling bubbling up.
there was a brightening in the visual field, an openness and a little lightness in the body, more of that giddiness rising
Yes, all of that sounds Ike SEEING.
But as soon as it did, thinking jumped in to label everything so I could report it back to you, and that state suffocated immediately.

What does it matter if thoughts arise? So what?

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Can anything really change that? Even if it isn't immediately in Awareness?

Santa put his suit back on - so what? Does that change the fact that he's just a guy dressed up in a suit?


Sure, others struggle with doubt. But everyone is different. Stop comparing for a while.

Is a prolongation of that state necessary to lasting stability? At least at first?

Would it help to concentrate harder on one aspect of it?
No, not necessary. Just let reality in. Stop arguing for a myth. You say you're so skeptical? Then how have you been so fooled for so long?

Loving,

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:53 am
by vegansatori
Hi again!
What does it matter if thoughts arise? So what?
The presence of the thoughts isn't really the problem. It's the way they instantly affect and derail mental/physical states. Which now that I say it, is really only a problem if there's clinging to expectations of wanting positive states and recoiling from others. So it really doesn't matter.

Questions: If those descriptions sound like SEEing, how much is SEEing defined by physical/perceptual states? If thoughts come in and pop those feelings, am I still SEEing? Is constant SEEing really a part of being Awake?
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Only in concepts. Webs of sensations knitted together with self-referential thoughts that help to create or enhance the illusion, but an "I" doesn't actually have any independent existence. And no, there never was one. Just beliefs appearing about one.
Can anything really change that? Even if it isn't immediately in Awareness?
Haha, no. Depending on which post-LU person I hear or read speak about it, sometimes it sounds like to be Through the Gate there needs to be a 24/7 awareness/remembering of the lack of self. But others make it sound like it's only a small step above conceptual knowledge.

I've noticed on Bennett's post that Vince makes it sound like many of the feelings and habits of self, and the acting as though we have free will even knowing that we don't, can take a long while to gradually melt away, even after going through the Gate.
Santa put his suit back on - so what? Does that change the fact that he's just a guy dressed up in a suit?
LOL, no. Again, I keep questioning what level of irrevocable SEEing, or changes in mental habits and patterns, and conviction of what IS, is really considered "Awakening" in this context. In the Finding Awakening book there was the quote that "the sense of 'me' can no longer be produced". But I've heard so many other people say that they feel exactly like they did before, "me feeling" and all. They just don't believe it anymore.

So when I SEE, but then it collapses back to the normal feeling of "me-ing", I figure there must be another step left to take.
Sure, others struggle with doubt. But everyone is different. Stop comparing for a while.
I'll try!
Stop arguing for a myth. You say you're so skeptical? Then how have you been so fooled for so long?
I suspect the question was mostly rhetorical, but when I read it, what appeared was that there is a tiny part of 'me,' after all of this, that is still skeptical that I can fully wake up.

It's odd because I haven't noticed much of that contrarian skeptic streak lately. But that question reignited a little of it for a moment. ​

The other part of the answer is that all the skeptical fussing is just more thought. And it all works together to reinforce that sense of individuality with unique ideas and habits. So the more thinking and belief in those thoughts there is, the more the DMN is engaged, and the less present and open "I" am to Looking and being with things as they are. It's a vicious cycle of false self-perpetuation.

I keep dropping into the LOOKing for a few moments, and there is an instant bit of levity and brightening. Like it's always there as soon as I tune into it. But there needs to be remembering to shut up and LOOK for it to appear.

Thanks again for everything!
-Todd

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:32 pm
by Anastacia42
Good morning
really only a problem if there's clinging to expectations of wanting positive states and recoiling from others.
Right. You're already seeing & you've been stuck in expectations for weeks & weeks.

There will always be negative & painful states. They don't ever go away. How you view them can shift, but we do not guide to that at LU.
If those descriptions sound like SEEing, how much is SEEing defined by physical/perceptual states? If thoughts come in and pop those feelings, am I still SEEing? Is constant SEEing really a part of being Awake?
None. Yes. No.

We do use those descriptions go confirm SEEING.

Didn't you read Gateless Gatecrashers and/ or Liberation Unleashed?

Only in concepts. Webs of sensations knitted together with self-referential thoughts that help to create or enhance the illusion, but an "I" doesn't actually have any independent existence. And no, there never was one. Just beliefs appearing about one.
Then you are already seeing.
many of the feelings and habits of self, and the acting as though we have free will even knowing that we don't, can take a long while to gradually melt away, even after going through the Gate.
Yes. I've told you the same thing. Long ago.
when I SEE, but then it collapses back to the normal feeling of "me-ing", I figure there must be another step left to take.
Only the remaining fetters. We don't guide those here.
I keep dropping into the LOOKing for a few moments, and there is an instant bit of levity and brightening. Like it's always there as soon as I tune into it. But there needs to be remembering to shut up and LOOK for it to appear.
You've SEEN. You can even SEE at will. It will not be some permanent state at this point. Maybe after all 10 Fetters drop. We don't go into that here.

WHO is this "I" that drops in or tunes in? Where is that? in Direct Experience?

How long have you been seeing & experiencing the lightness of the truth of no self?

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:48 pm
by Anastacia42
Hi,

One more question:

Do you still want to retain your sense of individual identity, your “me? And if so, why?


If yes. I have a few more.

Loving,

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:14 pm
by vegansatori
Good morning!
There will always be negative & painful states. They don't ever go away. How you view them can shift, but we do not guide to that at LU.
I have heard that, and to be honest, my dealing with negative states and unskillful reactions to emotions (to use a Buddhist term) has been pretty good lately. Someone cuts me off in traffic and there's a quick flare where an obscenity is muttered, but then I snicker and laugh about it a second later. It's like a match head igniting and then blowing right out. There have been a few more anxieties that have been rising up throughout the day, but I look at the physical sensations and let them pass. And they do quite quickly.
Didn't you read Gateless Gatecrashers and/ or Liberation Unleashed?
I did read G.G. but the point that stuck out most in memory was the vividness and certainty of the SEEing when the people finally got it. Which is has been the broth of my expectation soup.
It will not be some permanent state at this point. Maybe after all 10 Fetters drop.
I guess I was expecting more solidity after the first stage.
WHO is this "I" that drops in or tunes in? Where is that? in Direct Experience?
It's not really an "I". It's the same feeling of doerless doing that comes with the hand-flipping exercise. There's an impulse to do it that just arises, and then it happens.

In this case the happening is that the attention turns inward, a bit like the turn used in the Headless Way, but for me there's more torso involvement as well. And along with that internal focus, there's a temporary quieting of thoughts, and a slight shift in perceptual awareness. And it often comes with a light grin and tingly happiness. Subtle, but there.
How long have you been seeing & experiencing the lightness of the truth of no self?
I don't know. I guess for a while? It's been more of a gradual shift rather than a switch clicking on. And this SEEing is so close to things I've experienced in the past through meditation that I didn't think it was IT. Which come to think of it, those bliss days I had after the meditation retreat last May might have been the big shift, but it wasn't really framed that way. It felt like this SEEing only a hundred times stronger. But because it was a spontaneously occurring event, I didn't associate it with a realization about no-self. It just seemed like a strange, but partially anticipated, by-product of the retreat.

Have you ever watched SpongeBob? There's an old episode that's been frequently coming to mind during this. I tried to find the whole scene on Youtube to send you, but it's not all there. Essentially, Mrs. Puff, his driving instructor wants to get SpongeBob out of her class because he's such a menace. So she gives him an Extra Credit assignment to write a 10-word essay on what he learned in boating school. And she gives him the first seven words. All he has to do is write the final three, which he fails to do. She's so eager to be done with him that she tells him the rest doesn't matter, that he's passed! And when he says that it doesn't feel like he did anything to earn it, she tells him that's what extra credit is supposed to feel like. LOL

I'm not relating you to Mrs. Puff or anything, but this feeling of SEEing still feels like extra credit to me. It's so much easier, and more subtle than I was expecting. (And yes, I've heard literally everyone say it's so obvious it was under their nose the whole time, and that nothing has changed. But there's always that pesky add-on that "everything changed" which gives the expectations more room to grow.) Probably it's just that I need to run the rest of the Fetters, like you said. Thankfully I have a book to help with that! ;-)
Do you still want to retain your sense of individual identity, your “me? And if so, why?
I don't think I've ever wanted to retain it. Since my teens I've been trying to get rid of it any way possible. The whole reason I came here was out of the desperation of having failed at it for decades. That said, there are personality traits that I currently have which I hope will continue because they seem to be well-adapted for the society I live in.

But I lost all ambition for name recognition, self-aggrandizement, and striving for material goods or fame years ago. I don't want to be a famous musician or great guru. I'm very content with just the "Bare Necessities of Life", to quote a great old song.

Interacting with other people, it's very obvious how seriously most people take themselves and their story, and their ambitions for some measure of greatness. Thankfully most of that dropped for me a while ago, but in this society it makes me sound like a lazy loaf. In a lot of ways I feel like a 96 year old man, rocking in his rocking chair, watching the sun go down from his front porch. LOL

Is the hope to maintain a decent personality reasonable in this context, or is it still too locked in with a sense of self?

I don't know if I need them, but I'll take any additional questions you want to throw. :-)

Thank you again!
-Todd

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:20 pm
by Anastacia42
Hi,

You don't need the questions.

I know "Bare necessities, but never saw SpongeBob - way after my time.

Do you have time now for a video chat?

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:22 pm
by Anastacia42
By the way. I had this, too, before no self:
this SEEing is so close to things I've experienced in the past through meditation that I didn't think it was IT. Which come to think of it, those bliss days I had after the meditation retreat last May might have been the big shift, but it wasn't really framed that way.

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:46 pm
by Anastacia42
Hi,

Okay, after our video chat, here are the "final questions."

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Loving,

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:45 pm
by vegansatori
Hi again!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there is no stable, abiding "I" anywhere to be found, nor could there ever have been one.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Just sitting here, the feeling of "self" or "me-ness" is really a combination of physical tensions and other sensations in my face and torso, coupled with self-referencing thoughts (including memory thoughts) all knitting together a net that is perceived as the illusory sense of "I".
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
When I look for the sense of me, the feeling vanishes, and in its place there is a sense of internal opening. It's a very subtle shift in perception where the visual field brightens (even with eyes closed,) and things feel a tad more vibrant and alive. There is often a little grin that appears, and sometimes a light bubbling of giddiness. Like a gentle effervescence. The biggest difference is a temporary quieting of thought where everything is able to just appear as it is without constant conceptualizing and narration.

The biggest difference from before the dialogue started was that I'm no longer plagued by doubts or chronic skepticism about it. That was truly my biggest hindrance in this whole process. The constant questioning has quieted down considerably. I've been pretty content all year, but I would say that my seeking energy has gone from a 10 to a 1 or 2 at the most. And that has changed most in the past week or two.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
This is a tricky question. It's come to light recently that I probably started SEEing back in May when I had a huge blissful awakening type of experience following a five-day meditation retreat. The thing was, the bliss and vibrancy and everything happened spontaneously walking outside on my street. If it had been preceded by a trigger statement about there not being a self, it would've been much more obvious to me at the time. (Though of course in retrospect, the whole retreat was, at its core, an effort to provoke exactly that realization, so... duh!)

And this current SEEing experience is so similar to other meditation experiences that I've had over the years that with all of the discussions of it, I was expecting an even bigger, more obvious event than the May one to signal crossing the Gate.

I think what led to this final bit of Awareness was actually listening to some video discussions with Robert Saltzman that basically popped the balloon of my expectations. So the relaxation that followed allowed the full recognition to dawn. The thinking and judging and expecting more kept getting in the way.
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
It initially feels like I'm choosing something, but when really observed, the decision has been made well before I'm consciously aware of it. Everything is happening by unconscious processes and the thinking mind takes ownership of the choice with post-hoc rationalizations.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Similar to decision, "I" don't know when the intention to do something really begins. Words keep appearing on this screen because there is some sort of internal intention to answer these questions, but I have no idea how it's happening, or how to influence what the words will be. Most of my life doesn't even feel like I am trying to exercise will or intention. It seems like autopilot even without close scrutiny. And when there is actual LOOKing for it, it's clear that the feeling of intention arises after the action is happening or has happened.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.
I haven't believed in free will for years, initially not from DE, but because it's obvious that we didn't choose our DNA, families, living conditions, etc. And that everything is dependent upon, and influenced by, the state of every other thing in the universe, going back to whatever came before the big bang.

But in terms of DE, it's clear that there is no "me" to be found, so who could possibly be exercising free will? Everything in this body/mind is an automatic process happening, so who could be in there to make decisions or push things around to its liking?
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
I feel like a bit of a broken record, but related to the previous few questions, who is there to choose? Choices and decisions arise from somewhere in the subconscious of the brain, and then some other thinking bit comes online after to take credit for something it had nothing to do with. If I try to choose which mug to drink from, the arm is already reaching out to one of them before I have the idea of which it should go for.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
Again, essentially the same as the previous answers, control is an illusion. Things happen, the brain sometimes convinces itself that it had control and got what it wanted even though it had nothing to do with it. Again, since it's right in front of me, who is controlling the hands typing these words? In my DE, everything just appears.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
This is another tricky question. From DE, I have no idea how anything happens. Things appear, something becomes aware of it an instant later, and then thinking judges it, takes credit for it, etc. But the happenings just happen. As far as how it works, I will leave that to the neuroscientists. I've heard a lot of very plausible explanations of how the brain makes predictions, then choices, then creates our own versions of "reality", and fabricates the illusion of self. But it's all borrowed knowledge for me. I have no way to verify it, so I'll refrain from hypothesizing anything further.

Outside of this body, Life just Lifes. It's a big messy process constantly changing and interacting with itself.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
With no free will, and no individual self, who could be responsible for anything? The feeling of responsibility and guilt for unskillful actions still arises. But it can be seen through as soon as it's Looked into. I'm certainly not responsible for this SEEing. It's been a long road of tons of influences (some beneficial, some that were more like barriers) that all reconditioned the brain responses that led to this change of perception. But it definitely wasn't "my" doing or else it would've been done decades ago!

6) Anything to add?
Just that, again, I think the process took much longer than was necessary because I had absorbed so many exaggerated expectations of what "crossing the Gate" would look/feel like. And that many years of skeptical defensive thinking were keeping things mired in thought, rather than just relaxing and accepting whatever is. (Sorry, Stacy!)

And again, had the post-retreat bliss state happened during this dialogue I would've immediately attributed it to SEEing and it likely would've been a much more expedited affair. Instead I was chasing that particular dragon for 8 months.

Also, the SEEing state is available any time "I" drop in to check in with it. But I was laboring under the delusion that it had to be a 24/7 perceptual change to be done with this. I heard people say it, but it didn't get through.

There was no honeymoon period. I think because I've been conceptually convinced of no-self for many years, and have had those other meditation experiences, so this just felt so ordinary and obvious that it wasn't being accepted as IT.

Lastly, I think one of the most helpful things in the past couple of months has been the inclusion in the LU monthly Zoom meetings. It's been great having a guide, and I've watched all of the videos on the LU YouTube page. But the humanizing and grounding effect of interacting with other people who have seen, and hearing their continued personalities and highs and lows in life, were instrumental in bursting that expectation bubble and bringing it to a more reasonable place. Of course they also added valuable insight and feedback along the way!

Thank you all very much for everything you've done!
-Todd

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:57 pm
by Anastacia42
Hi Todd

Okay, one follow- up question:

2. ... when it starts ... ?
Sorry, Stacy!
It's okay.

Please answer that little bit about when a sense of self starts & I'll get this posted for review. Good job!

Loving,

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:08 pm
by vegansatori
Hi Stacy!
Oops, guess I didn't quite cover that.
2. ... when it starts ... ?
In my experience the sense of self seems to arise in conjunction with thinking. If thinking pauses, and everything is simply as it is, there is no feeling of self present. Even with the same physical sensations that are usually associated with "me" appearing. But when that state constricts, the feeling of "being a self again" seems to coincide with self-reflexive thinking, judging, or analyzing of the experience or other arising sensations. It's a familiar story that pops back online. Sort of like an actor putting on a costume and makeup to become a different character. Only this is so subtle and persistent that it's rarely noticed.

Thanks again!
-Todd

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:29 pm
by Anastacia42
You're welcome. That works. Another aspect of this question is about when in our lives does this develop?

Loving,

Re: Time to see through the illusion

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:12 am
by vegansatori
Ah, gotcha!
Another aspect of this question is about when in our lives does this develop?
I've heard that it develops around 2-3 years of age, but I don't have a personal experience to confirm or dispute that. As far as I can remember (and with memory being as slippery and faulty as it is, I don't know how trustworthy this is) "I've" felt like the same-ish "me" witness my whole life. Personality traits, interests, aversions, beliefs, etc. have all changed countless times throughout the years. But the feeling of being the I/self/knowing witness of everything has stayed pretty consistent. At least until it was looked for.

Thanks again!
-Todd