Bodymind in the works

[ssplash]

Vince,

One quick thing. You wrote that: "others are your interpretation of your perception." Do you mean that what I perceive from others is not objective? (As any other perception).

Love

Paloma

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince

I have now almost recovered from the flu. I was quite ill with a very strong bout of the virus, and I'm slowly getting back to normal. What I've found is that my normal has somehow dispelled. I had grokked a strong intuition about a certain distance between direct experience and the workings of the mind, and now it seems as if I'm back to square one and everything seems as it ever was, including the "poor old me". This flu has frittered away this soft scent of understanding, and the illusion feels as strong as ever.

ssplash wrote:

it's important for me to be able to explore them and quench the thirst caused by this bewilderment

Yes, mind says that there will be some sort of satisfaction in a quenching. In a resolution. That bewilderment is to be resolved.Are any of these actually accurate ?

Well, I know see that all there is is this distance, this threshold that seems to be behind the scenes, a whole realm that includes everything we see, think and feel. I understand that it's fully embedded in the not knowing, outside of thought and yet containing thought.

I have been challenging myself everytime I've been tempted to state an opinion sternly. I feel very insecure now, it might be because of the psychological effects of the flu on me, but I don't identify so strongly with any given argument. I am opening up although it all feels scatty. At the same time it pushes away the feeling of fear, and kindness is easier to reach.

i mean that others are not something/one objective, but in fact apparent others are your interpretation of your perception. Can you grok this ?

Not entirely. Would this mean that what I grasp from others is just the thoughts derived from my perception of them?

Thank you so much for being there, Vince.

Love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Paloma,

What I've found is that my normal has somehow dispelled. I had grokked a strong intuition about a certain distance between direct experience and the workings of the mind, and now it seems as if I'm back to square one and everything seems as it ever was, including the "poor old me". This flu has frittered away this soft scent of understanding, and the illusion feels as strong as ever.

Yes, physical exhaustion can certainly make our 'gains' fade, temporarily. The new conditioning isn't yet strong enough to persist through these times. It will resurface as you get stronger.
It's as shown in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You have just moved down to a survival level and this stuff is not important until you feel physically safe again.

I don't identify so strongly with any given argument. I am opening up although it all feels scatty. At the same time it pushes away the feeling of fear, and kindness is easier to reach.

Good stuff. ..and i get a sense of wonderment about it. Is that so ?

Would this mean that what I grasp from others is just the thoughts derived from my perception of them?

Yes, but don't take my word for it. Look as experiencing happens. Can you even imagine something, unless it is part of your own experience ?
How hard is it for you to grok what i am blah blahing about ? i have to find things that you can relate to, then stretch into new territory. (not that i do that consciously)

Thank you for being there.

love

vince

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince

Thank you so much for your message. It helps me understand what's happening here :)

ssplash wrote:

I don't identify so strongly with any given argument. I am opening up although it all feels scatty. At the same time it pushes away the feeling of fear, and kindness is easier to reach.

Good stuff. ..and i get a sense of wonderment about it. Is that so ?

Yes, I do. In fact, I'm really puzzled because yesterday I lost my patience with my partner and a comment set me off fuming into a strong reaction of self-rightness. I was very surprised about it because of its destructive effect. I am really not so bothered to express my opinion about anything nowdays, I just listen to everything everybody has to say, and I couldn't recognise myself when I burst into self explaining with such energy.

I have been creating a tapestry out of everyone's opinions about things, lulling on the smooth effect of seeing how everything integrates together as a firmament of threads that go back and forth, feeling that what I am in terms of actions and emotions just makes up for a small part of it all. I have found refuge in the persistence and strength of life expressing itself without needing a logical explanation behind it. I didn't like the feeling behind being so opinionated, it didn't fill me up as it had in the past. Not knowing throws you into silence. Having to define myself felt very intense.

Look as experiencing happens. Can you even imagine something, unless it is part of your own experience ?

I guess I can't. When we don't think of ourselves all the time, a small possibility, a crack opens that lets more in.

Big hug,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Paloma,

I'm really puzzled because yesterday I lost my patience with my partner

Was this an old pattern popping back in ?

I couldn't recognise myself when I burst into self explaining with such energy.

Ah, it still happens here occasionally too. How quickly did you recognize that you were lost in emotion ? Was it a defense of that fictitious self ?

I have found refuge in the persistence and strength of life expressing itself without needing a logical explanation behind it.

Beautifully expressed. (heart swelling here)
Paloma, have a crack at these question, and we will see if there is any identification remaining..
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

vince

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince

I took some time to answer your questions because I know that this is almost the end of your guiding and of this adventure that has transformed me thanks to your patience and loving concern.

ssplash wrote:

I'm really puzzled because yesterday I lost my patience with my partner

Was this an old pattern popping back in ?

It wasn't a big deal seen from the outside, maybe, but I could feel an internal movement taking place, a seismic shake that wanted to break through and eventually took over, and I'm not so used to feeling it anymore. It comes from an old place, but the way I experienced it was different.

How quickly did you recognize that you were lost in emotion ? Was it a defence of that fictitious self ?

When I actually got lost in the emotion it took until the next day to really identify that and get back from it. This was an intense defence of the self. It felt that it had to state its ground, its solidity, it had to control what was being said about it. This self needed to dwell in that energy to fuel it own existence into being, otherwise the mind felt vacant, owned by someone else, the fortress broken into.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't, just the strong conditioning of our brains to believe there is.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The brain unifies the experiences it stores in memory and creates a felt sense, a psychological device, a centre of residence for them. There are feelings and emotions being felt, a sense of physicality around a body that's identified as being unique, and desires that seem to rally our actions. I feel I'm being me because I believe I want certain things to happen, and there are emotions that seem to back up these claims. Thoughts come up all the time consolidating the ownership of actions and decisions. I recognise myself because other people see me and respond to what I'm doing.

This self feels separate because it thinks its own existence, and there aren't thoughts that state there's anything else belonging to the self besides its sense of a mind and its experience of a body. Everything else is felt as being outside. The self doesn't think of itself as a bunch of experiences, it doesn't see itself in action. Reality encompasses the feeling of a self, the construction and maintenance of itself as well as everything else that the brain doesn't experience directly.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels very logical but at the same time very confusing. I still have the need to understand, to feel what's there other than the self, I feel a vacuum sometimes and I can't fill it. Before this dialogue I couldn't see the self in action, I felt I owned every experience and was responsible for all my thoughts. Now I see how thoughts happen on their own without my control. I also get glimpses of an experience,a reality being there that doesn't include my desires or anything to do with "me", and sometimes I can rest on it. During the past few days I have seen strong fluctuations in my feelings about this, and I've felt apart from these realisations. However, I have been puzzled by seeing a strong identification with my thoughts and actions which leads me to believe that I still don't think that the self is real.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Just being aware that my thoughts happened spontaneously, and being able to see them taking shape sometimes. Becoming conscious of my conditioning.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decisions are actions being seen as willed and conducted freely by a conscious self. Intention is the realm of thoughts that we believe are behind these actions. Free will, choice and control are notions, concepts that the mind uses to confirm the existence of a self in action. Everything that comes up in the mind is seen as a directed thought, but in reality both actions and thoughts happen by themselves fuelled by conditioning and chance. For instance, every word that I'm writing here is the result of the capability of my mind to imagine language and string concepts together. If I move my hand I can "think" about it or not, but this thought of me instructing my hand to move has just come up as well in the same way. I can't guess what my next thought will be and therefore I can't really say that I'm in control of them.

6) Anything to add?

I think that the relevance of knowing this will bring me a better quality of life and a fuller understanding of reality and my place in this world. This knowledge of oneness doesn't come naturally though. I feel that I have to remind myself of it, still examining my actions and being aware of the difference between real experience and fiction. Integrating this knowledge seems like a very long road, sometimes very far away. I hope that my conditioning will lessen and I'll be more free of it, but sometimes I'm dismayed to feel the same fears, disappointments and pain, whilst knowing that my mind fabricates that.

I feel very privileged and thankful for the opportunity to have had you as my guide, Vince. I can't even begin to thank you for your patience and insight. You have indeed changed my life and have helped me to be aware that there is a whole realm of possibilities and experience awaiting. I'm impatient and still fighting to understand suffering and surrender to reality, but you've showed me the road ahead. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, I hope you can still be there for my questioning. I'm really looking forward for the next steps!

Big hug and love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Paloma, i am offering your last post to other guides so that they may see if i have missed anything.
i will get back to you in a day or two.

I hope you can still be there for my questioning. I

yes, i will be around for that.

I'm really looking forward for the next steps!

Good stuff. You will have the support of a whole community for the next bit.

love

vince

[ssplash]

Thank you so much for everything, Vince :)

Love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Ah, one guide came back really quickly with some clarification questions.

Decisions are actions being seen as willed and conducted freely by a conscious self.

Where is the conscious self? How do you know it is that that is willing and conducting these things?

For instance, every word that I'm writing here is the result of the capability of my mind to imagine language and string concepts together.

So there is a 'you' writing and stringing the concepts together?
Is the mind 'you'? Where is the location of the mind?

I move my hand I can "think" about it or not,

You have the choice to do so?
What is making the hand move exactly?

Another guide asks;
Is there a brain, or just thoughts about a brain?
Can you actually find the 3 pounds of grey matter in experience right now?
Can you actually find the 100 billion neurons in experience right now?
Can you actually find 100 trillion synapses in experience right now?
Can you actually find trillions of axons in experience right now?
Can you actually find 500 billion glial cells in experience right now?
And if you cannot find any of these things, then what is the actual experience of a ‘brain’?

Some of these you've already addressed, but for clarity, do them again.

love

vince

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince, hi guides :)

ssplash wrote:

Decisions are actions being seen as willed and conducted freely by a conscious self.

Where is the conscious self? How do you know it is that that is willing and conducting these things?

There's no conscious self, there is just a bundle of thoughts about its experiences. Decisions are spontaneous actions that the mind labels as being the result of this fictitious self's agency. I don't think the mind itself really exists either, but I use the word to refer to our mental activity.

ssplash wrote:

For instance, every word that I'm writing here is the result of the capability of my mind to imagine language and string concepts together.

So there is a 'you' writing and stringing the concepts together?
Is the mind 'you'? Where is the location of the mind?

No, there's no one doing that. Words are written and concepts are spelled out. I'm not my mind. The mind is not a thing located anywhere, it's a way to name a whole load of thoughts that use language to comment on experiences.

ssplash wrote:

I move my hand I can "think" about it or not,

You have the choice to do so?
What is making the hand move exactly?

I meant that I can get to think that my mind is moving because there is an I that makes it move, but I can move it the same without thinking about that. The hand moves independent of thought. I don't know what makes it move but I can also see that it's not a "me".

Another guide asks;
Is there a brain, or just thoughts about a brain?
Can you actually find the 3 pounds of grey matter in experience right now?
Can you actually find the 100 billion neurons in experience right now?
Can you actually find 100 trillion synapses in experience right now?
Can you actually find trillions of axons in experience right now?
Can you actually find 500 billion glial cells in experience right now?
And if you cannot find any of these things, then what is the actual experience of a ‘brain’?

Anything that cannot be experienced is a thought, a concept. I can't say that I sense the experience of a brain, only what I've been told: if I have an idea it's because I have a brain! In that sense I feel like the straw man from the Wizard of Oz. I can also experience what I call my sense of hearing, but on a closer look the experience of hearing can't be separated from sounds themselves.

To be honest, I get a bit vexed when I think about these things. The knowledge hasn't settled and doesn't feel completely natural, and my mind doesn't deal very well with these notions. I haven't developed a sophisticated way to explain what I now understand, but I'm not too worried about it because I feel that my ideas about reality and life have changed and everyday I know less and experience more.

Love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

See you on the other side...

v

[ssplash]

Sounds good!!! (In waiting)

Love,

Paloma