Another guide please

[JonathanR]

Hello Mark,

I am sorry but once again some technical problem has prevented me from answering your latest post. I'll try again later today.

Jon

[marka]

thanks for letting me know Jon, it's no problem, I'm not going anywhere.
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

Looks like the 'Algerian hackers' issue has gone away for now.

A few posts ago you mentioned this:

I still need more time on this though I think - it seems as though I have intellectual understanding and some direct experience, maybe the intellectual side is what I'm relying on more here, I don't know.
That is, it seems clear, I've seen it!, yet still seem to believe in an 'I'.

That was why I suggested the melon exercise. There is a big difference, isn't there, between experience that can be sensed right here and now (real melon) and a thought ABOUT something ( thought-melon)?

Is it clear that 'I' or 'self' only ever 'exists' in the way that the thought-melon appears to exist?

In the case of 'self', is there a real one as there is in the case of the melon experiment?

It is so simple that many people imagine it must be more complicated than this. Quit simply,.is there a 'self' outside of thinking that there is one?


Best wishes,

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,

I like this exercise - it brings for a real surprising comparison, one my brain is still having difficulty processing!

There is a big difference, isn't there, between experience that can be sensed right here and now (real melon) and a thought ABOUT something ( thought-melon)?

Huge difference, yes.

Is it clear that 'I' or 'self' only ever 'exists' in the way that the thought-melon appears to exist?

I think I'm still digesting this so immediately no, it's not that clear!
I mean, with the melon exercise, there was a real melon (apple in my case.) Whereas with the 'self' .... what is the equivalent of the 'real melon'?

In the case of 'self', is there a real one as there is in the case of the melon experiment?

Immediate direct experience reaction was this:
thought: 'there must be'
physical: produces a curious sensation in my chest/heart area - like a constricting, almost like panic.
thought: 'Who or what am 'I' then?'

then, later thought: 'no, there doesn't appear to be a 'real' self, like a real melon.'

It is so simple that many people imagine it must be more complicated than this. Quit simply,.is there a 'self' outside of thinking that there is one?

I think maybe I'm doing this - the 'more complicated'. Based on what I have gathered so far, no there is not a self outside of thinking there is.

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

like this exercise - it brings for a real surprising comparison, one my brain is still having difficulty processing!

That's great. Brain cannot 'process' this. At least, this exercise is not about thinking something through so much as just looking and noticing what goes on, isn't it? Brain cannot 'work this out' because thinking its self is under a kind of scrutiny...what it gets up to and what it assumes for 'fact' begins to be noticed.

think I'm still digesting this so immediately no, it's not that clear!
I mean, with the melon exercise, there was a real melon (apple in my case.) Whereas with the 'self' .... what is the equivalent of the 'real melon'?

The real apple affords some direct sensations that are not simply thoughts, doesn't it?

Is 'self' more like the thought apple, or the real apple?

Immediate direct experience reaction was this:
thought: 'there must be'
physical: produces a curious sensation in my chest/heart area - like a constricting, almost like panic.
thought: 'Who or what am 'I' then?'

You are getting it! , The pain in your chest/heart says a lot. There is a perception that something is threatened. Actually there is nothing to get hurt but there is still a feeling of this and perhaps a pain or fear reaction. This is very common. If possible, when this is felt, try to relax and not resist the pain or fear but let it flow through. Sometimes it is even possible to talk to your heart and thank it for its loyalty and its efforts to protect. That there is nothing that needs protecting; that it can relax.


Let me know how this goes,

Best wishes,

Jon

[marka]

Good day Jon,

If possible, when this is felt, try to relax and not resist the pain or fear but let it flow through. Sometimes it is even possible to talk to your heart and thank it for its loyalty and its efforts to protect. That there is nothing that needs protecting; that it can relax.

well, did this a bit today. Talked to my heart. Did feel some but not like it was when I was experiencing the panic.
To be honest, not sure I really was able just to conjure up a feeling like the melon/apple exercise produced.
Maybe need some help to create real situations?

thanks,
Mark

[marka]

Good day Jon,

If possible, when this is felt, try to relax and not resist the pain or fear but let it flow through. Sometimes it is even possible to talk to your heart and thank it for its loyalty and its efforts to protect. That there is nothing that needs protecting; that it can relax.

well, did this a bit today. Talked to my heart. Did feel some but not like it was when I was experiencing the panic.
To be honest, not sure I really was able just to conjure up a feeling like the melon/apple exercise produced.
Maybe need some help to create real situations?

thanks,
Mark

[marka]

sorry for repeated message

[JonathanR]

Ok Mark,

No, conjuring up such an excersise sounds as though this would be thinking about doing it. Isn't that true? And the value of this experiment is that you have one real object and one equivalent thought-idea of that object and you are able to see the difference between the two.

So, I suggest you could try an orange this time, or a cut flower, or a potato. Something organic with a bit of character, colour or texture and maybe fragrance. As before, place the real object out of sight and start by imagining the thing. After doing that for a while, go and pick up the real thing. Turn it round in your hands. Do you feel it, its weight, colour, texture, maybe smell? Compare the two orders of experience. It is true to say that there were thoughts ABOUT the thing first but no actual fruit/vegetable being experienced?

Is this not like 'the self'? An idea but not an actual entity? Perhaps a mental image or a story about 'me' without there being an equivalent 'real me'? An appearance of an 'I' but actually just a thought, like the thought-fruit?

Yes, maybe even a fair passing impression of something that 'seems to be me' but like the thought-fruit just a mental image or idea, nothing more? And certainly having no 'real' counterpart as in the case of the real item that can be sensed?


Best wishes,

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,

doing this with something in the fridge that fits the bill - gone for a slice of pumpkin.

thought pumpkin: imaging the shape. It's a slice so curved, the outer skin a dark green, the inner flesh a bright orange. I imagine the outer skin feels tough in my hand, and cold. There are lots of white coloured pumpkin seeds inside. Imagining what it might smell like, trying to remember/recreate the smell of pumpkin soup.

actual pumpkin: it is curved, like a crescent moon. the outer skin is dark green although flecked with oranges and light brown. the outer skin is cold although not so tough - more smooth with 'bobbly' bits.
The inner flesh is orange at the center but more like a range of shades from lemon yellow at the edge through to the bright orange in the center. There are lots of white coloured pumpkin seeds inside, covered in an orange gooey type flesh.
The smell, actually, is not too strong, nothing like the taste really.
Also, one thing entirely missed, not even thought of - there is a large brown 'knob' on the outside, where it was attached to the original plant.


There are some striking differences here Jon - in essence actual experience is more complete. More full of detail. More full of noticing the detail.

the thought pumpkin is like the self? Only exists in thought?

Is 'self' more like the thought apple, or the real apple?

(pumkin in this one)
hmm, self is more like the thought pumpkin ...... but it feels like the real pumpkin! Or, more correctly perhaps, it wants to feel like the real pumpkin.
Also, mind/thought wants to argue this - that self does not exist just in thought - although it has no real argument, more an 'unwillingness' to accept what has been seen.

thanks,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

hmm, self is more like the thought pumpkin ...... but it feels like the real pumpkin! Or, more correctly perhaps, it wants to feel like the real pumpkin.
Also, mind/thought wants to argue this - that self does not exist just in thought - although it has no real argument, more an 'unwillingness' to accept what has been seen.

This is good observation. What might it take to 'move beyond' this dilemma, do you suppose?

Simply continuing to look in this way will help.

It may not feel comfortable but this unwillingness is now the focus, do you see that? Because that is where the perception of a separate 'self' manifests.

It is not that we are trying to 'get rid of self' but to see through it, to see its actual nature. But this can seem threatening. That is why I drew attention to the idea of fear. It is important to notice these feelings of reluctance or unwillingness as is already happening.

Love,

Jon

[marka]

Hey Jon,

What might it take to 'move beyond' this dilemma, do you suppose?

Been thinking about this today. Do not know.

That is why I drew attention to the idea of fear. It is important to notice these feelings of reluctance or unwillingness as is already happening.

Yes, there has been a lot of reluctance to engage today. Although, keep coming back to question/notice/observe.
I can suggest that there might need to be more surrender, or more openness .... but in truth I don't think anything has to happen, except a willingness to experience something.
Maybe I just need to relax.

When that experience of the constriction in the heart happened (during the thought apple), the fear, it was like it was so quick, that 'I' pulled back from going into that experience fully, that it would hardly have been noticeable if I hadn't been noticing!
thanks for your holding of this space, it's much appreciated,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hello Mark,

Yes, there has been a lot of reluctance to engage today. Although, keep coming back to question/notice/observe.
I can suggest that there might need to be more surrender, or more openness .... but in truth I don't think anything has to happen, except a willingness to experience something.
Maybe I just need to relax.

Yes, could be. Sometimes this is what it takes. Provided the willingness to look at whatever comes up remains i think relaxing would be a very good idea.

When that experience of the constriction in the heart happened (during the thought apple), the fear, it was like it was so quick, that 'I' pulled back from going into that experience fully, that it would hardly have been noticeable if I hadn't been noticing!

Yes. I understand. But Mark, you actually noticed for a split second. that 'self' is a thought, not an actual 'person'. That's amazing!

You say 'I' pulled back'. Of course I'm not suggesting there wasn't a pang of fear but was there really 'someone' that could 'pull back' or did thought project that notion?

You are doing well. Relax but keep noticing.


Love

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,
thanks for the above.
Nothing to report today, thought about things, nothing new.
speak soon,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark

Thanks for letting me know.

How is it going with the sensation of reluctance? and the relaxing?

Also, mind/thought wants to argue this - that self does not exist just in thought

You said this a couple of days ago. You know how you have been asked to look for an 'I' or 'self' in experience? And I joked about looking for it as if it were a crocodile? Well, consider this one too...

Look as you do when searching for a 'self' but this time see if it is possible to find 'a mind'.


Best wishes,

Jon