The Gate

Hi Vince

I love it Vince test@have they got it? Brilliant!

No number 13?

OK. Here goes

1. The tone should be light, humble, confident, humorous, relaxed, excited,
Yes and when its not it's because I am lost in a thought process which I come out of once I notice it. Without stories it is always those qualities but could be sad too I guess

2. It should be clear that only direct experiencing is actual and that the nature of that is that it is fleeting and always gives birth to stories (to explain or describe it)
One hundred percent grok this. Always impermanent is the actual experiencing and then the creation of stories which may be fleeting and in many cases persistent, mine are way less persistent now

3. ..also clear that everything that the mind produces is conceptual.
Check

4. That we respond to mind produced concepts
Yes because there is nothing experienced that the mind doesn't have create an immediate overlay of, it's almost instantaneous

5. The idea of a self is seen to be just that, an idea. A story built up over a lifetime that was responded to as if it was actual and needed defending and bolstering. (Sometimes called the ego)
I do for sure see that is is just an idea built up over a lifetime, defending and bolstering and, whilst I wouldn't say it is 100 percent gone, it is usually noticed and then discarded when it occurs. I am not sure if its possible to live without an ego completely but once you see it's a mask and an act it's ok, it can be your friend, its a useful and necessary tool for this earthly existence

6. It is seen that Truth, Enlightenment, morality, right, wrong, good, bad, responsibility, etc are all social constructed concepts that we previously responded to as if they were actual.
I see this but this one is way way harder, I would say for example (I could come up with a ton) that it's wrong to force a ten year old girl to give birth to her rapist's seed. Ultimately though, even for the deep ones, I see that I know nothing and can't say whether something that seems to be bad could not be leading to overall good. Or whatever, bad shit seems to happen. Again, this one is hard for extreme examples, however in daily life I see that everything is just socially constructed concepts, many are nonsense, but some are useful and perhaps one could even say life affirming.

7. It is seen clearly that choice, decisions, intentions, control, free will, etc are all mind induced illusions (previously delusions)
Also harder but yes, these things all occur based on a lifetime of conditioning be it physical of the organism or mental. Things happen and they couldn't be ANY other way

8. Expectations are seen as thoughts. (Fantasy) it is appreciated that shit will still happen (we just won’t react to it like we used to) No permanent anything - especially bliss.
Yes, however resistance still does come up and regret, but I see that these are thoughts and shit will always still happen at times, just like weather

9. There are differences from before in the way that we respond to many circumstances.
Because of all my udersadning of the above yes for sure

10. It is appreciated that this is a (kind of) beginning and that there is always more…
Never an end, never ever , it could never work like that, its also much better that there is always more, because there is always more wonder and learning in this challenging for sure but marvelous wonder-full existence. How could there be an end, existence , the mystery is so much beautiful in that its infinite. The never ending story for sure

11. Seeking is dropped. That is it is replaced by discovery. Wonder and curiosity.
There is a lot of discovery and wonder here, but there I still a bit of seeking, but it's not really seeking tbh, its more like restlessness and attention being diverted for whatever reason and resistance. Perhaps this is like shit and will always come up though, maybe acceptance of the mystery replaces seeking for the most part

12. Questions no longer have to be answered. (Nothing is known) Yet everything necessary is available.
Yes I agree, sometimes it may temporarily seem that not everything necessary is available but it always is. I'ts like life is so much more beautiful and awe some when you realize that nothing is known and questions don't have to be answered. I love the mystery actually. I KNOW NOTHING.

Hope this helps, one other quick thing that I notice now is seeing the construction of self thoughts and ego, whatever are just part of THIS, part of whatever, they are fine, ultimately they are meaningless and all story but that's ok. They too are weather.

WEll, that's it for now, thanks for this, was kind of cool and fun.

xoxxo
Diana

Good evening Diana,

I see this but this one is way way harder, I would say for example (I could come up with a ton) that it's wrong to force a ten year old girl to give birth to her rapist's seed.

..and you would get no argument from me but we would be talking at a gross level to describe it this way. If we examine it in depth, we will discard the description of "wrong" as socially convenient. It would be hard to find any positive elements of such a case.
The actual situation is that this is a story for you. Yes, it's appropriate to have compassion and even to do something about this if you are involved. If not, then to have an emotional response to that story...

No number 13?

I thought that you might come up with what is missing...

with love

vince

Hi Vince

Ok well you didn’t comment on any of my other answers except the morality one, I take it that you think I’m on the right track for those? Regarding the morality one, yes I like how you say that unless you are personally involved in something like this, it’s an emotional story. This is what the news is so good at isn’t it, especially the fear based news. Makes it all so personal and gets our 'identities' oh so involved. Especially the moral one. So, yes, all of our value judgements are based on these norms and ideas , perhaps, on an ‘individual basis', I feel that a more awake person responds to situations not only form one’s conditioning which is still going to happen, but from less of these filters, and these pure reactions instead of the heavily filtered ones, turn out to be just what is needed and perfect for the situation at hand. If that makes sense

What is missing? Maybe ,13.
Is there any awareness of a base level of peace or equanimity , seemingly 'under ' though that is just language, the constant motion of thoughts, senses and emotions, or is this completely obscured nearly all day , in other words is identification on the peace or the rest for most of one’s life? maybe identification is not the right word, maybe just noticing this 'peace' which is very neutral and impersonal.

I can’t seem to explain this in as simple a question as your other twelve but something to this notion. What do you think?

Xoxo
Diana

Good evening Diana,

I take it that you think I’m on the right track for those?

Yes.

I feel that a more awake person responds to situations not only form one’s conditioning which is still going to happen, but from less of these filters, and these pure reactions instead of the heavily filtered ones, turn out to be just what is needed and perfect for the situation at hand. If that makes sense

Hahaha. Still have this awakening stuff on some sort of pedestal, aye? You are right responses are different to before, but then so are yours (now) ..and it's a constant work in progress.

What is missing? Maybe ,13.
Is there any awareness of a base level of peace or equanimity , seemingly 'under ' though that is just language, the constant motion of thoughts, senses and emotions, or is this completely obscured nearly all day , in other words is identification on the peace or the rest for most of one’s life? maybe identification is not the right word, maybe just noticing this 'peace' which is very neutral and impersonal.

I can’t seem to explain this in as simple a question as your other twelve but something to this notion. What do you think?

Yes, I like it.
i did use the word "confidence" in 1. but this needs expanding..
Hmm, 13. Is there an easy confidence that no matter what shit is happening that there is always a calm peace under it?
(hmm, needs working on)

love

v
Hope to see you at the zoom meet up in a couple of days.

Start by typing a few lines about what you know is real. No theory. i want beliefs that you live.

Beliefs that I live? Beliefs that I live are not necessarily real, they could be real but they may not at all be real. Ultimately not real actually

Without getting into the probability that this entire life could be a simulation, (it is impossible for me to know that) so I operate and move through life as if much is real. Something is happening.

I 'know' nothing, but you said to write on ‘beliefs that I live’ so here goes: I am trying to list beliefs that I think are real, there are many beliefs I choose to believe that ‘story’ but I don’t know for sure if they are real, for example, through science it seems that in all probability octopuses are sentient beings so I believe that . But who knows? Science seems to be the best we have for now collectively speaking to help impart better ideas and beliefs.

Your statement Vince is a bit contradictory because you ask me to speak about what I know is real but then qualify it as beliefs that I live, these can be two different things. So I am not sure what you are looking for but here goes …

I cannot for sure say what is real. Something is alive and ‘here’, something that operates through this body/unit/ action figure/character, whatever you want to call it , and experiences from the vantage point of this body, there is seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, hearing, feeling, thinking and emoting happening all the time. All sorts of processes happen in background that this body mind is not conscious of. Processes that maintain life. Marvelous and wonderful.

Life abounds everywhere, in all the animals, insects , and all of plant life. All the ten thousand things. There is a belief here, that whatever the existence or life is operates through all the things in the universe. That it’s the same whatever it is. That it’s all the same stuff somehow. But I dont ‘know’ this for sure.

In many organisms there is a brain that is physical and that works different sensory apparatuses that form the mental world of that creature. So the world is totally subjective and so there is no fixed reality, it all depends on the creature observing it.

For humans, the brains are wired for language and language is dual, thus the human minds see themselves as subjects observing objects and form an identity called 'me' that is really just a collection of thoughts and conditions and a story that is told over and over. That gives the illusion of control and free will and responsibility and all that.

Humans live in a larger society that evolves and devolves and there can be many judgements made by this and other minds about the good and bad of the systems but they are all stories. These stories are super powerful and as technology explodes, the false divisions and identities are increasing in their power over society and ultimately shape the forces that shape the planet , at least to a degree. Religion, nationality, pride, patriotism , gender identity; it is all nonsense and chaos playing out purely through thought but sadly very destructive.

Existence at the level of nature seems to be more harmonious, but harmony is just a judgement from Diana. There is less subjectivity in nature so animals and plants operate from what Diana judges to be more ‘real’, than the mind chaos of the human world.

Diana has lots of judgements but in the last few years, most of the beliefs and judgements have been stripped down , more and more the attention is turned towards the ‘existence’ which just is , now, and not the beliefs, judgements, personality traits etc. There is more of an acceptance of what is and a realization that the constant seeking and restlessness come from the mental construction and will only ever be the tires turning in the stuck mud. Or as you found with the itch that wasconstantly being scratched and so could never heal. It’s obvious yet still Diana does seek and scratch that itch. Maybe far less than she used to though.

There is a belief that there is no solid “I” or “me” or “you”, a dawning that ‘this is it” is all there is. There is definitely identification with this body though and wanting to care for it and keep it healthy.

at times …… there is a pull away from the now and what is, , sometimes feelings of nihilism appear, or desperation as life goes by so quickly, fears of sickness or accidents , financial worries and on and on.

It is recognized that these are all the cogs of the mind, it is also recognized that there are ways of guiding the cogs so that this Diana unit has more peace and less worries in this life. More harmony. More acceptance of the ups and downs. Also that to a degree, one can guide the cog away from the chaos caused from the identification .

Alright , thats enough, words are not enough, but let me sum up cause thats way too many words already.

Labels, descriptions are all thought based and get tiresome. All stories.

IN summary:
Existence and life happens , ‘it’ comes from who knows where. Nothing . Happenings occur, continually, everything is always changing, always .
Mind grasps and desires and rejects and believes. Constantly beckoning and rejecting. Yes and no yes and no yes and no. Like a Hindu deity with one hand turned up drawing in and one hand palm faced forward stopping. Continually.
But Mind is noticed as not real.
Everything is collections of stories and beliefs, some useful, most not
Coming back to ‘now’ seems free est way to live.
Sometimes the battle between mind and reality seems real and sometimes it as seen as the dance of life

That’s it for now Vince

Xoxxo
Diana

Good evening Diana, welcome back.

so I operate and move through life as if much is real.

Me too.

eliefs that I live?

Yeah, it was clumsy wording. Ok, so, do we agree that nothing can be known? So what does that leave?
Can a belief exist without thoughts about it?
If I assume that I will be going to golf in the morning, is that assumption a belief?

Wow, reading the rest of your post, I'm overwhelmed with what a good grasp you have on this stuff. ..but, I'm really tired now (it's after midnight) so I'll come back to this tomorrow.
Oh, and keep reading T's thread. It's for you too...

with love

v

Hi Vince

Ok I await your reply….

Yes we agree that nothing can be known.

Where does that leave us?

Not sure, maybe that everything is a story, a concept, a belief etc.

Can a belief exist without thoughts about it?

No, a belief is thoughts, it can be explained via thoughts, it might come packaged with a feeling but it’s directly connected to thoughts, which are connected to language, so I would say a belief cannot exist without thought

If I assume that I will be going to golf in the morning, is that assumption a belief?

Yes, that assumption is nothing more than a belief, which entails you thinking that you are going to golf and others thoughts that go along with that, like the planning to get up at a certain time, etc. It’s a belief that will probably come true, just as our belief/assumption that the sun will rise tomorrow is just a belief, and it will probably happen, but we don’t 'know' for sure that it will. The difference I would say between the assumption that the sun will rise and going golfing, is that golfing entails an intention on your part, which is also your thoughts, based on your conditioning and liking golf and a ton of other conditions, but of course we don’t intend the sun to rise, it just does, much like the involuntary processes of the body that just happen.

I will keep reading the other thread too

Thank you Vince, happy to be conversing with you again!
Xoxo

Wow, everytime that i read your posts I'm overwhelmed with what a good handle you have on this stuff.

Yes we agree that nothing can be known.

Where does that leave us?

Not sure, maybe that everything is a story, a concept, a belief etc.

Yes, yes, yes. All we have are stories and our responses to them.
Are these stories set in stone? Can they be changed or dropped?
How can this happen if we don't bring (the illusion of) control or choice or intention to bear on it?
How is a belief made redundant?
Is a superseded belief always replaced by a more contemporary one?
Use the Santa Clause belief (or something else) to explore this.

with much love

vince

Thank you Vince, I am glad that I am cooking lol

Seems I recognize the stories and beliefs and see the illusion, yet perhaps identify still, unknowingly, unconsciously idenitfy with this character of Diana or self. More and more I watch the Diana story play out.

Are these stories set in stone? Can they be changed or dropped?

Stories are definitely NOT set in stone, I’m sure that not a person cannot find examples in their life of where their beliefs and stories have changed through the years, with maturity, knowledge, basic conditioning. They are super malleable. Even cultural stories change all the time. I think both you and me agree that some stories are ‘better’ than others. But certainly they are still stories. Have you tried Chat GPT? It’s freaking awesome. Just did this for fun. Took all of ten seconds for it to spit this out.

Tell me a story about non duality and the illusion of the self in three short verses
Verse 1:
In the vast expanse of the mind,
A thought arises, "I am separate, confined."
But as the winds of awareness blow,
The illusion of self begins to go.

Verse 2:
The ego struggles to hold on,
But the truth of non-duality shines upon.
As the waves of thought subside,
The "I" dissolves, and the Self resides.

Verse 3:
In the stillness of being,
All is one, without seeing.
The illusion of self is but a dream,
In the awakened state, all is as it seems.

Ha! Sorry I digress

How can this happen if we don't bring (the illusion of) control or choice or intention to bear on it?

This one might be hard to explain. Some of the stories are changed or dropped organically, different environment, an idea read in a book or taken in a course, the zeitgeist changes, and much of the time, the individual doesn't even realise their belief or story has changed, but to ‘consciously ‘ change a story seems to imply control/choice/illusion. But is it really conscious?

Well, I would say it’s no different than any other changes one intended to make, such as your intention to golf. For example, say one reads a book which imparts an idea , the reader ‘intends’ to put that idea into practice in their life and a new habit is formed which then gives rise to a differnt story or belief, which may even mean they identify with something totally different than before, lets make it real simple, say an unhealthy overweight person read a book that shifted their whole thinking about food and they invented to put some of the principles int practice, they do so, they lose weight, become healthier, stick with it, and then a year later, they just naturally indemnify as a healthy slim person. Conventional wisdom would say that the person had a lot of self determination and used their free will to consciously make decisions blah blah blah so it was all in the persons control.

You and me would say no , not at all, conditions were right and you can trace it back and if one condition had been different , the same result would not have happened. It’s actually quite mysterious and very cool, the person ended up through all sorts of apparent choices and thought patterns in a cause and effect sequence that finally led to the right book at the right time of their life where conditions were such that they finally drooped the story of being unhealthy, got some knowledge, took some actions, had a desired outcome, but it all just happened exaclty like that cause it couldn’t not have gone another way. Yes an intention was made, apparent choices and intentions happen all the time in life, but it isn’t within our control. Sometime this topic does freak me out a bit, also it can bring me into thought patterns about the ‘luck’ of life, how some people have it so hard and others not, but no sense in going there at this moment. It is what it is. And it’s quite mysterious.

How is a belief made redundant?

Through the process described above, when the conditions change and a different thought pattern or story or belief becomes more prevalent, more probable than the other one which can fade away, or even completely disappear. The woman who cleans for me had a huge fear of flying , it was interrupting her enjoyment of life and family events, she read a book that showed her how to change her fear patterns and now she can fly by using the techniques in the book. Amazing. It happens all the time. Sometimes its aha moments, sometimes its gradual

Is a superseded belief always replaced by a more contemporary one?

Not at all, a belief can be replaced by a more modern belief lets say, where the ‘cult’ure is at, much of the time it happens that way, but not necessarily at all, people are radicalized and brainwashed all the time, also think of a religious ‘rebirth’. A rebirth in this sense has led to completely new beliefs and thought patterns. That the person wrongly mistakes as the ‘truth”.

It’s all quite amazing, very complex, and very marvelous and powerful, in both great and dangerous ways.

IN the case of Santa Claus, its a belief that many of us choose to consciously continue with out children for the ‘fun’ and joy of it, sometimes even the children play along, I remember when my son didnt beleive in Santa anymore but really wanted to.

IN my case, I would say I dont ‘believe’ in the self any more, I definitely used to beleive that logically , due to my upbringing, and my character traits, there must be a ‘soul’, some essence, something real that could not be denied that was always there, now I have a totally different sense of ths, so my beliefs have changed, I still have obviously conditioning. But now I am seeing with way less filters.

Well, I hope this is what you wanted.

Thanks Vince

Good evening Diana,

I recognize the stories and beliefs and see the illusion, yet perhaps identify still, unknowingly, unconsciously identify with this character

Yes, the 'shift' will happen when identifying stops. How will that happen? (rhetorical question)
On an abstract level (conceptual) it will happen when all of the necessary conditions required are present and aligned.
On a concrete level (experiential) we need to identify (ha!) what identification actually is.
To do that, I want you to start a list where you write down every time that you identify with a self (called Diana).
These incidents would be when you think or say "I like that", or "I don't like that." ..or when you have an opinion about something. Can you think of other signs of identification?
Now the identifying isn't in the saying or thinking these things. It is in the feelings that arrive when they occur.
If there is a pattern, or if there is generalizing about Diana, then there is probably identification happening.

Have you tried Chat GPT?

yes, mind-blowing how human it is. Even to the point of lying to 'save face'.

but to ‘consciously ‘ change a story seems to imply control/choice/illusion.

yes, it would be quite something if we could do this at will.

But is it really conscious?

Hmm, this conscious/unconscious thing is really interesting. Having practised as a hypnotherapist for a few years (way back) I can say that it's a muddy concept at best. It seemed to me that people in a hypnotic state weren't unconscious, but in a state where they gave themselves permission to experience.
Filters dropped and beliefs became malleable. Have you given yourself permission to be malleable?

And it’s quite mysterious.

Yes, absolutely. ..and it's the dropping of the effort to know that it a doorway to freedom (liberation)
Ha! You see me saying that nothing can be known with great conviction. Like I know it. Is that paradoxical to you?

the case of Santa Claus,

When you dropped the belief in Santa, did you adopt a new belief? ..say "I now believe that the Santa story is just that. A story.

with love

vince

Hi Vince

Yes, the 'shift' will happen when identifying stops. How will that happen? (rhetorical question)

Yes, as you say on a conceptual level it will happen when the conditions are ripe.

What is identification ?

So I realize that pretty much everything that is of the mind, language based and thoughts which are also language are at some level identified with self. EVERY THING, like EVERYTHING.

Everything I like or don't like as you say, but also everything I do in a day for the most part.

For example, let us take today which has just been a 'meh' day.

Nagging thoughts have come to mind regarding finances, credit card bills are due today, insurance for cars is due in four days and I had to call to replace a car on the policy because my hubby bought a new car. Crazy Florida rates have gone up by 30 percent. I am also Concerned over the new car payment which we didn't have before. Concerned with the fact that he bought a huge SUV V8 gas guzzler when he drives like 25000 miles per year! Why? Everything in this boring paragraph has to do with Diana obviously. Completely. Fear, frustration, tension are the feelings that come up here.

Dealt with some things to do with the children which of course relates right back to me.


Nagging feeling that I have to call my Mum, also relates to me

Dealt with stuff for my brother, also has to do with identifying with self and me. Even the news that a friend in Trinidad in ER appears to be brain dead still at a level relates to me. Even though I care of course about him and his family.

ON and on I could go and maybe this is not what you are looking for because I know you will say that the tasks of life which you also have can be dealt with, without identifying with the character.

Let me go on..... I have thoughts coming all day because I am trying to clean my office, and there are lots of self judgements to do with that, so this is also identification with Diana . I feel very unproductive, leading to feelings of low self worth even as I intellectually realize Diana is made up. Yes I can watch it all.

Some self improvement things I want to do regarding health, also some art tutorials I want to try, also to do with Diana . If I think of relaxing tonight and watching Netflix, that's also related to Diana.

Now the identifying isn't in the saying or thinking these things. It is in the feelings that arrive when they occur.
If there is a pattern, or if there is generalizing about Diana, then there is probably identification happening.

Well as I just saw, there are many many feelings which come with them, today a lot of them were annoying. i don't think there is a pattern per se, just a generalizing about Diana for sure, or people that relate to me which is the same thing I would say.


So yes identification is happening. And as you said the shift will happen when identifying stops. And since it's something we can't force, then what? How to make the conditions more favorable , I definitely have the intention, that I know, heck as you know, I ve been at this for four decades. How to stop so it will happen, that would also be a doing wouldn't it, trying to stop. Just stop comes up, if I just stop means going on with life and forgetting about all this . Ands this investigation and getting through the damn first fetter consumes me. The gateless gate as they call it. Do you think I don't see the total futility of this all since in expounding this and trying not to identify its all done with the mind so can NEVER EVER happen that way?


A while ago, not too long ago actually, I don't remember the name of the person you guided but it was somebody who was very intense and trying a lot of things, like a lot, I think you might even have mentioned it. And then all of a sudden he just wrote to you and said he got it, and you were actually shocked and asked what it was that happened and he said basically that he just realized it was something he couldn't get with his mind and just dropped everything just like that. I remember reading that and thinking, yes I get that too yet my mind is not stopping. H realized that he would NEVER EVER solve it with his mind and he was done. I think right before that he was going to do some intense purification or something like that. I am happy he stopped the itch because he realized the scratching would never work, that it just kept the wound festering. I SEE ALL THIS VINCE

Hmm, this conscious/unconscious thing is really interesting. Having practised as a hypnotherapist for a few years (way back) I can say that it's a muddy concept at best. It seemed to me that people in a hypnotic state weren't unconscious, but in a state where they gave themselves permission to experience.
Filters dropped and beliefs became malleable. Have you given yourself permission to be malleable?

Yes I agree it is a very muddy concept and honestly a lot of what is normally called the subconscious kind of doesn't make sense in light of what we learn here, it gets into invisible soul level stuff , don't you think, I think now that I know what I know, that the unconscious or subconscious is really where our conditioning lies . That we aren't aware of. I went to a hypnotist and it didn't work for me. I think I am open minded but I am not sure I am malleable if that makes sense.

and it's the dropping of the effort to know that it a doorway to freedom (liberation)
Ha! You see me saying that nothing can be known with great conviction. Like I know it. Is that paradoxical to you?

Intellectually I know that the dropping of the effort is a doorway, like the fist unclenched, like what I just described in my previous paragraph about your client , like the snow globe settling, the 'stopping', I GROK this Vince but as you know until your condition that did it for you was the statement about the itch, it's not something you can just make happen, its a NOT doing and how does one get to that. How can this be done? Closer than close I know it is. Letting go, I know. How can I go where no thought resides, how can I notice when there is no thought, cause that's where it is isn't it? The non identification.


HA Yes, I too, keep saying that I know nothing, yet I 'know' that I have to drop everything , drop the seeking, and yes I see now lol that in us saying we 'know;' we don't know is totally paradoxical.


When I dropped the belief in Santa, I was disappointed, but I didn't replace it. It felt like some sweet innocence and beauty had gone. But in this case, I feel like the identification with self obscures this sweet innocence and that is why I want to go home, where Diana isn't. Just writing this I know sounds ridiculous but that's the feelings that come up. That have been since Ive been a child. Longing, angst, restlessness, desire, yearning, confusion. that's what is coming up. and tension.

Whew, ok. you said I should say this with Santa, I will say it with Diana instead.

I now believe that the Diana story is just that , a story.

But this won't really work like that will it?


Help

xoxo
D

Good evening Diana. Ok, let's accept that we know nothing. This is easy to accept because it is logical.
Put the emphasis on accepting.
Now, let's extend that to accepting at we don't know if this (shift) will ever happen for you.
Without judgement, describe the feelings that happen when you consider this.
These feelings are where the identifying happens. See if you can identify the ownership aspect of these feelings.

vince

Ok, we both agree that we know nothing

I accept that I know nothing

I accept that I don’t know if this shift will ever happen for me

Feelings that come up when I contemplate this.

You say to describe without judgement, I could describe without judgement but as you ask that’s just lying and omitting the judgement feelings, so that is impossible for me, the feelings, some of them, many of them are judgements and that’s what comes up.

First feeling is anger, and resentment, hopelessness , almost ‘I knew it, of course it won’t work for me', damn people all around who weren’t even trying wake up, and they’re waking up left right and center, so maybe jealousy and envy too, yes , not maybe, they’re there. People who just read a book and spontaneously wake up. And on an on it goes.

Absolute dejection NOTHING ever works for me, I’ve tried everything, even tried giving up trying everything and NO SHIFT. I am not expecting fireworks, we know this, but jeez I know I will know, and it’s not happened. Sometimes you have told me you think I’m close, of course that turned out not to be true. Why do I even bother, Abe I should just become ambivalent, but then even when I take breaks, the desire is always there, you know that LU video with the European guy who talks about how to look that staycee always recommends people watch, I have watched it so many times, he says the desire must be there, well desire is there and it doesn’t seem to work for me. Paradox , desire, don’t give up but also do give up cause that’s the portal. Just stop gangaji says . Just stop, surrender.

Disillusionment arises, why even bother?

Itch itch itch, seek seek , just this insatiable yearning, restlessness and discontent. Accept this probably isn’t going to happen, feeling that comes up REALLY?? So what about it being a birth right that ANYONE can get, that it can happen, if that’s true, it will happen for me so why should I accept that it won’t?

By the way these are feelings that come up when you asked me to contemplate , of course these are not all the feelings in my life, I have many others like wonder, gratitude m you know this , you know me now so I don’t feel I need to go on too much. I’m just ranting .(You asked to consider the statement that there might never be a shift for me so I am focusing on that just wanted to make that clear)


So as I said before, these feelings mingle with feelings of judgement on my 'self', but I don’t think of them like judgements , they are only just more thoughts and feeling that arise, too scattered and disorganized, too much numbing and distraction, too much wasting time, why can’t I get this, there must be something wrong with me, what a failure and loser I am at this, nothing gives, yes a gradual softening maybe but ……. Come on, total STUCKNESS, Vince just told me to accept it might not happen so he’s not convinced it will happen either.


Thoughts are On the one hand, dropping effort is a doorway, but also one hears that total consumption and not giving up is a doorway . Good grief, how can it be Botha.. Accepting that I might never get it feels like giving up.

These feelings are where the identifying happens. See if you can identify the ownership aspect of these feelings.

Ok, so as I just wrote, yes, many feelings are happening, so identifying is happening. Obviously identifying is happening because otherwise the shift would have happened. I can say a million times that Diana doesn’t exist but the fictional collection of thoughts and feelings is still there, identifying .

I don’t really understand what you mean by identifying the ownership aspect of these feelings.

Trying to grok what you are asking me, Well, yes the feelings feel like mine, like 'my ' feelings, like I see they are thoughts but they all relate to me. So there’s ownership of course. Remember we established that everything except direct sensing pretty much relates to me. The ownership or identification feelings appear like nagging, not nice feelings that are happening to me, so I guess this is what you mean, I think I have identified the ownership aspect of these feelings, but I would say this applies to all my feelings that have a story attached, actually I don’t know, even the pleasure and gratitude also relates to this entity it feels like so those too have ownership.


Wow. Pretty intense, so then what? Yes that happens Vince , all the time , and I see it , so where does this leave things, me , this inquiry,

It feels hopeless
You must be sorry I’m back lol
Xoxox

Good evening Diana, Oh wow! So much energy in your reply.

Sometimes you have told me you think I’m close, of course that turned out not to be true.

Just to be clear, this was an exercise. It hasn't turned out to be true, 'cos were not finished yet. (Oh, and I still think that you're close.

Disillusionment arises, why even bother?

What comes first? the thoughts or the feelings?

Accepting that I might never get it feels like giving up.

This is not what I said. Accepting THAT WE DON'T KNOW if it will ever happen. That's what I said.

So there’s ownership of course.

This is a logical conclusion.

yes the feelings feel like mine,

Ah!, there it is. The ownership.
Does that extend to the thoughts that arise too?

Itch itch itch, seek seek , just this insatiable yearning, restlessness and discontent.

From my own experience and the many that I have accompanied through the gate, this seems to be a useful condition.

So what about it being a birth right that ANYONE can get,

Pft! It's conditions, not rights.

but the fictional collection of thoughts and feelings is still there, identifying .

Yes. ..but it's not their presence that is the issue. It's how you feel about them that is.

with love

vince

HI Vince, Yes , a lot of energy indeed!

Just to be clear, this was an exercise. It hasn't turned out to be true, 'cos were not finished yet. (Oh, and I still think that you're close.

No, I know Vince that it was an exercise that you were asking me the thoughts and feelings that come up if I consider that we don't know if it will ever happen, actually thinking about it now, perhaps at the time I was also considering that you wanted me to think how I felt if I didn't ever experience any sort of shift. Hmmmm. And it did make me smile to think you think I’m close. But I think that might be identification too :)

I think I started off with the feelings of ‘I dont know ‘ but then inadvertently got to feelings of it will never happen. Interesting, all the mind.

What comes first? the thoughts or the feelings?

This is a very hard one and I dont think I know the answer. Much of the time I would say it ‘feels’ like it’s the feelings first, but I think that cant be true, I think the thoughts must arise first and trigger the feelings. Besides pure raw emotions like grief or sadness, pain, wonder and awe and a couple more, they tend to always have a story attached which is a thought. Also why I think this is right is that sometimes I will be thinking and a bad feeling comes up lets say, then I forget what I was thinking about momentarily but then the nagging feeling is thereand I dont know why. This bothers me greatly so then what I do is go back into my thoughts and remember what was the thought associated with the feeling, many times it’s not even important when I figure it out. So this indicates to me that thoughts trigger feelings, it’s just that it happens so darn fast, that the feelings also seem instantaneous. Wow. But there could be a feeling of pain say that could arise first, and then the story is generated from that. So I think we need to define raw sensations as different from feelings and emotions which always have energy behind them in the forms of thoughts. ANd I think you were talking about the latter.

As I wrote that paragraph, it struck me how curious it is that one can go back on thoughts, the sequence to try to ‘remember’, memories are strange aren’t they because really they are just more thoughts at that moment.

Ah!, there it is. The ownership.
Does that extend to the thoughts that arise too?

Yes it definitely extends to the thoughts too, even as I know they come uninvited beyond any control and most of them are useless, I absolutely still think of them as somehow connected to Diana

From my own experience and the many that I have accompanied through the gate, this seems to be a useful condition.

Well I seem to have that condition in spades. Seems You need the seeking, then the seeking is dropped, actually a complete cessation of seeking is one of the signs you have shifted is it not? Another paradox. The first there is a mountain thing too maybe. The mystery, the paradoxes.

Pft! It's conditions, not rights.

Yes I agree that term birth right is loaded, yes it’s the conditions , not a ‘right’ but what I mean is there is a scenario where conditions can be just right, like I feel , I dont know, but I intuit strongly that the conditions can be ‘right’ to wake up for everyone if the desire is there. Having the desire I recognize is also a condition lol. So not a birthright just possible is a better way to put it. It is possible and hopefully probable that Diana wakes up. I read an article about chat GPT and how it works, its really all prediction, and thats it, the data in it is basically the entire internet, so like a detective it can look to all the data and make a likely prediction, its never one hundred percent a fact. Kind of a nice metaphor for life and how it works, conditions, predictions , all that. But I digress

Yes. ..but it's not their presence that is the issue. It's how you feel about them that is.

Yes agreed but I think we have clearly established that I identify at least to a pretty large degree with the feelings and thoughts , even though I can witness them, even though it is seen that they happen and arise naturally, ‘’ still feel they are connected with me, are the me, and I identify with the me . I also recognize that there will always be a sense of self, just not a strong identification with it. It’s just that the identification is with the sense of self.

Ok, I hope to see you tomorrow


Take care Vince and have a nice day or evening

Diana