Seeking the end of Seeking

[Govinda]

Maybe not as the final questions, but they give us a good idea of where we need more work (play)

ok.

Clearly you have expectations that these things shouldn't happen once you are awake.
That they happen says nothing about being awake. What does though, is how we respond when they occur.

yes, that's true I guess

Obviously you saw them happen. When you realized that they occurred, what was your response?

if the bodily issues maintain for several hours or days the stories seem to become more dense and anger, helplessness and guilt also intensify. Also resistance

How soon after they arose did you recognize them?

the reaction is noticed quite quickly and the guilt story and the thought "this should not have happened" is believed very much apparently. Maybe at the core is the guilt story. "I did this. I made mistake. I am guilty. I exist."

The unawake person will get sucked into stories about how it shouldn't happen, which will lead into other stories and a spiral downwards will happen until some diversion occurs.

that happens here

The awake person will welcome them as an opportunity to explore what is behind them.

guess the guilt story is very much believed.

So, the next time any of these things arise, push the explanations (concepts of guilt, blame etc) aside and go for what sensations are present. Where are they located? What do they feel like? are they changing? etc

that is the point maybe. the uncomfortable sensations can last for hours or days with almost no change which at a point becomes enormously stressful to feel and anger, helplessness and guilt become more intense, as well as the stories attached.

Avoid labels. The focus is on the sensations.

at some point feeling the same uncomfortable sensations for hours the desire to escape the body overtakes.

When you focus on the sensations you won't find a doer. When you think about what causes them, you know that it is a ploy to stop examining them.

again. at some point feeling the uncomfortable sensations turn into anger and helplessness and at some point feeling the anger and helplessness escalates into the desire to numb any feelings and thoughts.

[Govinda]

at some point feeling the anger and helplessness escalates into the desire to numb any feelings and thoughts.

but the helplessness and anger is still based on the guilt story I guess that maybe does not only appear in conscious thoughts but is assumed as given as the foundation of existing somehow. Know what I mean?

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Seb,

but the helplessness and anger is still based on the guilt story I guess that maybe does not only appear in conscious thoughts but is assumed as given as the foundation of existing somehow

Ok, this is a classic example of what happens (to you)
You avoid what is actual in favor of stories ABOUT it.
How can we know about the foundation of existence? Even the connection between helplessness and anger and guilt is a story that can't be known. It's all speculation.
..and what is the usefulness of knowing anyway?

the guilt story and the thought "this should not have happened" is believed

This question might seem odd, but answer it with the first thing that comes to mind..
What might be the benefit of believing these stories?

vince

[Govinda]

You avoid what is actual in favor of stories ABOUT it.

apparently

How can we know about the foundation of existence?

It is an assumption, conditioning maybe. Knowing is just thought.

..and what is the usefulness of knowing anyway?

survival I guess. It is a survival mechanism learned in early childhood which is also an assumption. Ultimately nothing can be known.

his question might seem odd, but answer it with the first thing that comes to mind..
What might be the benefit of believing these stories?

there is no benefit.

[Govinda]

Right now there is a very unpleasant numbness feelable in the body and a strong feeling of helplessness, resistance, hatred. Guess this is highly connected with trauma and early experiences of loss and at the same time it is a story and the story keeps the suffering vivid.
Especially the helplessness appears to be unacceptable. there is so much inner struggle and resistance going on. I don`t know how to get out of that cycle. Maybe it is produced by story but it is blurry and unclear. What is conscious is this apparently unbearable feeling of helplessness and resistance.

[vinceschubert]

feeling of helplessness and resistance.

The portal out of this is not behind you. It is not beside you.
It is squarely in front of you.
The only way to reach it is through the fire of your fear.
You can do it.
I tell you this because I imagine it happening.
Let's elaborate..
Every thought that arises, every single thought, it arrives from the past.
It comes from behind you, so there is no answer there. YOU CAN NOT 'FIX' THIS WITH THE MIND.
The way to be free from the bondage of thoughts is to ignore any labels that arise as you examine sensation.
What you are looking for is the pure sensation.
It will very likely take some practice to bring a sensation into sharp focus. (sharp focus is unclouded by a mental description.)
Try it now...
After reading these instructions,
close your eyes.
Do a quick scan of the body from top of head down to bottom of feet.
You probably passed over a couple of sensations. (if not - do it again more slowly)
Pick one. Not a really intense one. One in the Goldilocks range (just right)

• Hone in on it. Begin an examination of it.
  Feel the location of it.
  Experience its intensity.
  Notice its color
  Is it moving, changing, getting bigger or smaller?
  Stay with it. Watching it. Interested but not involved.

At some point you will 'come out of it'. Notice the flavor of that 'coming out of it'.
Were you pulled out or pushed out or did you just float out of it? (or something else)
Report please.

with love

vince

[Govinda]

Were you pulled out or pushed out or did you just float out of it? (or something else)
Report please.

The sensations are mostly tension and numbness which is labeled as the worst to feel or more unfeelable. Anayway, I got some support to feel these sensations by listening to a old Satsang recording and in the end there remained okayness with it. The resistance subsided and without thought and resistance the numbness is just numbness, nothing to avoid or force to feel, just what is, nothing special, unpleasant but no problem. Empty in a way without meaning.

[Govinda]

The portal out of this is not behind you. It is not beside you.
It is squarely in front of you.
The only way to reach it is through the fire of your fear.
You can do it.
I tell you this because I imagine it happening.

this is good to read. I remember this for next time. There was the strong belief that the sensations of numbness and tension prevent freedom and peace to be but it was the other way round apparently.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Seb,

without thought and resistance, the numbness is just numbness, nothing to avoid or force to feel, just what is, nothing special, unpleasant but no problem. Empty in a way without meaning.

This is huge!, Can you let this one really sink in?
Isn't the doer just sensations with thoughts (stories) attached?
Is this the case for guilt and shame too?
Can you go as far as saying that all uncomfortable sensations are actually sensations with stories that make uncomfortable 'real'?

There was the strong belief that the sensations of numbness and tension prevent freedom and peace to be but it was the other way round apparently.

Was there a 'shift' when seeing this. It's very perceptive of you.
Say a little more about it. (to really lock it in)

with love

vince

[Govinda]

without thought and resistance, the numbness is just numbness, nothing to avoid or force to feel, just what is, nothing special, unpleasant but no problem. Empty in a way without meaning.

This is huge!, Can you let this one really sink in?

I did my best

Isn't the doer just sensations with thoughts (stories) attached?

true

Is this the case for guilt and shame too?

yes

Can you go as far as saying that all uncomfortable sensations are actually sensations with stories that make uncomfortable 'real'?

think so, yes, story makes sensations real and dense.

There was the strong belief that the sensations of numbness and tension prevent freedom and peace to be but it was the other way round apparently.

Was there a 'shift' when seeing this.

What do you mean with shift?
there was a shift so far that the stories applied to the sensations became seemingly empty and the suffering created by the stories ended.

It's very perceptive of you.
Say a little more about it. (to really lock it in)

yes, I did not say clearly what I meant. What I meant that first there was the assumption that the numbness prevents freedom but actually it was not the numbness but the thought about it that it would prevent freedom. That's what I meant.

[vinceschubert]

'evening Seb,

first there was the assumption that the numbness prevents freedom but actually it was not the numbness but the thought about it that it would prevent freedom.

Excellent. This is really great. Can you allow that 'truth' to seep through everything? Every response?
It's the thoughts about anything and everything that obscure their actual nature.

without thought and resistance, the numbness is just numbness, nothing to avoid or force to feel, just what is, nothing special, unpleasant but no problem. Empty in a way without meaning.

This is huge!, Can you let this one really sink in?

I did my best

Of course. We always do out best when something matters to us. ..but I'm not talking about effort. This can't be achieved by working hard. No. The question is "did it touch something?
What was the feeling.. What is the feeling when you re-read what you said?

story makes sensations real and dense.

Yes. It's as if sensations are the screen upon which a movie is projected.
When we are focused on the story in the movie, we are unaware of the existence of the screen.
In fact, for us, the screen doesn't actually exist. (except in our imagination(

What do you mean with shift?
there was a shift so far that the stories applied to the sensations became seemingly empty and the suffering created by the stories ended.

A "shift" generally refers to a change to a different perception.
So, if the discovery of the emptiness of those particular thought stories spread to recognizing the emptiness of all thought stories, then a shift happened.

with love

vince

[vinceschubert]

'evening Seb,

first there was the assumption that the numbness prevents freedom but actually it was not the numbness but the thought about it that it would prevent freedom.

Excellent. This is really great. Can you allow that 'truth' to seep through everything? Every response?
It's the thoughts about anything and everything that obscure their actual nature.

without thought and resistance, the numbness is just numbness, nothing to avoid or force to feel, just what is, nothing special, unpleasant but no problem. Empty in a way without meaning.

This is huge!, Can you let this one really sink in?

I did my best

Of course. We always do out best when something matters to us. ..but I'm not talking about effort. This can't be achieved by working hard. No. The question is "did it touch something?
What was the feeling.. What is the feeling when you re-read what you said?

story makes sensations real and dense.

Yes. It's as if sensations are the screen upon which a movie is projected.
When we are focused on the story in the movie, we are unaware of the existence of the screen.
In fact, for us, the screen doesn't actually exist. (except in our imagination(

What do you mean with shift?
there was a shift so far that the stories applied to the sensations became seemingly empty and the suffering created by the stories ended.

A "shift" generally refers to a change to a different perception.
So, if the discovery of the emptiness of those particular thought stories spread to recognizing the emptiness of all thought stories, then a shift happened.

with love

vince

[Govinda]

Can you allow that 'truth' to seep through everything? Every response?
It's the thoughts about anything and everything that obscure their actual nature.

I try to. Thoughts are still convincing apparently.

The question is "did it touch something?
What was the feeling.. What is the feeling when you re-read what you said?

Sense of freedom and peace.

Yes. It's as if sensations are the screen upon which a movie is projected.

Interesting. I always hear that awareness is the screen.

So, if the discovery of the emptiness of those particular thought stories spread to recognizing the emptiness of all thought stories, then a shift happened.

There are still stories around that are believed I guess. Especially the stories around ex girlfriend and loneliness. Loneliness still catches me quite badly often times.

[Govinda]

It happened that there appeared loneliness and huge suffering. Tried to not go into story but it was like the abyss without thinking still became bigger and bigger. And then from one moment to the other it was clear that thoughts are not real and there only remained feelings and sensations without story attached. No Problem, drama, no movie. That was liberating. But I already experienced Moments of Grace like this and I know that the story can come back with heaviness and density any time. So there is freedom right now but also the assumption that the suffering, lonely story can take over again any time...

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Seb,

Thoughts are still convincing apparently.

There is only one thing to focus on when those pesky thoughts arrive, and that is when recognition that they were present happened, did you celebrate it?

Sense of freedom and peace.

This is always accessible.

I always hear that awareness is the screen.

Sensations are actual. Awareness is a concept.

There are still stories around that are believed I guess.

It's good value to be able to recognize when selfing happens.
When it does, it could be because stories are still believed, or it could be because it's an ingrained habitual responses to certain triggers.
Can you distinguish between the two and tell me which one applies to the responses that pop up?

Tried to not go into story

That's probably an impossible effort. The most likely response to that is that the stories become more compelling.
A skillful technique is to allow the stories to run their race, but to keep a commentary running. like a narrator describing what is going on.
Remember to celebrate the moment when you realize that a story is running. That's also the trigger to start the narrator.

but also the assumption that the suffering, lonely story can take over again any time...

I say "look forward to it coming back as an opportunity to dig deeper. To look at what is behind it when it happens.

with love

vince