Liberation Unleashed Forum The Gate
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[/quote]Can you see that purpose is a mind thing only ?the only purpose I can see is living
Action is part of the experience, is not emerging as such. I meant life as life force.Is the action emerging from something called life ?from the same place where all actions come from, from life itself
I don't think I will. Whatever is real will keep on manifesting itself and concept being thought out.Paloma, how will you know when you have recognized what is real and what is concept ?
The self is part of the show.Is there a self with inherent essence, somewhere, running the show?
Beautiful. Yes, love it.It's not possible to know what's real.
Yes, indeed. It's very enjoyable, but I don't know if I allow myself the pleasure too often, as I spend my time worrying about what will happen. I do see the space that opens when we don't entertain the thought that we are in control.Can you feel the freedom knowing that you know nothing ?
I'd like to say that I do, but after this week travelling with my family, I think I'm still far from being too accepting :) Although it's getting better, definitely.Do you experience acceptance of what life serves up ?
Yes, they are. I often catch myself realising that my own opinions are stories, but I still behave as if they matter a great deal, despite being aware of their fictional nature.Are opinions seen as stories. Just more thought stuff ?
Is control and decision making seen to happen without volition ?
Did you observe them as they were happening, or afterwards ?but also a lot of triggering of conditioned habits and reactions going on, hehe. I was very surprised to observe them happening within me
Did this surprise result in humor or something else ?I was very surprised to observe them
Was the story aspect of this noted at the time ?as if I was trying to find a way to achieve certain outcomes
What was the reaction to this as it was observed ?whilst at the same time preserve my status as the caring and responsible one.
The word suggest a choice here. Is it accurate ?but I don't know if I allow myself the pleasure too often,
"old habits die hard". Do you notice that this is changing ?as I spend my time worrying about what will happen.
We are not looking for perfection here. Any indication that 'improvement' is happening is a good sign. (i'm a long way from perfect, but still improving after several years)after this week travelling with my family, I think I'm still far from being too accepting :) Although it's getting better, definitely.
What is important here is the awareness of it. Sometimes it is appropriate to behave as if they matter. (say for communication purposes, or relationship purposes) If you are aware that you are behaving this way, then you are not sucked into the story.but I still behave as if they matter a great deal, despite being aware of their fictional nature.
...and is it seen ?Yes, there's no volition, but there compulsion!
At some point I was very upset with my sister and couldn't let go. I did think that what was going on was part of conditioning, but I still felt my irate reaction had a purpose. Now I am detached from it and can analyse it in this way.I hope I will catch myself doing it in the future.ssplash wrote:Did you observe them as they were happening, or afterwards ?but also a lot of triggering of conditioned habits and reactions going on, hehe. I was very surprised to observe them happening within me
Today I saw myself reacting to people and could see what was going on, and I did smile to myself.ssplash wrote:Did this surprise result in humor or something else ?I was very surprised to observe them
Not quite.ssplash wrote:Was the story aspect of this noted at the time ?as if I was trying to find a way to achieve certain outcomes
I thought about it afterwards. At that moment I was too stressed out to think tangentially.ssplash wrote:What was the reaction to this as it was observed ?whilst at the same time preserve my status as the caring and responsible one.
That's right, there is no choice. I would say that this knowledge is not integrated yet.ssplash wrote:The word suggest a choice here. Is it accurate ?but I don't know if I allow myself the pleasure too often,
Yes :)ssplash wrote:"old habits die hard". Do you notice that this is changing ?as I spend my time worrying about what will happen.
Aha, I see. We all have a role to play in the story.ssplash wrote:What is important here is the awareness of it. Sometimes it is appropriate to behave as if they matter. (say for communication purposes, or relationship purposes) If you are aware that you are behaving this way, then you are not sucked into the story.but I still behave as if they matter a great deal, despite being aware of their fictional nature.
Yes, it is :)ssplash wrote:...and is it seen ?Yes, there's no volition, but there compulsion!
Now, in hindsight, what are your thoughts about this "purpose" ?but I still felt my irate reaction had a purpose.
You will get better and better at this. Just remember that the 'value' in this awareness isn't primarily to stop the unpleasant emotion, but rather to see the futility, even the harm it produces for your organism. SEEing it is the goal. Stopping will happen automatically.I hope I will catch myself doing it in the future.
Has it been seen since ?Not quite.Was the story aspect of this noted at the time ?
Ha yes. Can you smile when you think of it now ?At that moment I was too stressed out to think tangentially.
The 'no choice' by a Self thing, doesn't preclude the value of behaving AS IF there is a choice, sometimes.there is no choice. I would say that this knowledge is not integrated yet.
That will happen. Enjoy the sense of urgency for the comedy that it is.I can feel a sense of urgency for it to be more pervasive.
This is big, and will have a much greater impact than just freeing you from unpleasant emotional reactions.Lately I've been dealing with people and was able to see them as a manifestation of life, of me.
I think that these reactions are manifestations of the belief that we are the agencies of change. Reality shows a different side when we give up on that. I'm still trying to digest what comes out of this realisation as there's nothing for "me" to do with it.ssplash wrote:Now, in hindsight, what are your thoughts about this "purpose" ?but I still felt my irate reaction had a purpose.
I understand. I can see how this would happen, it's like a round about way to understand what's going on by deconstructing it, seeing that its base is fictional.Just remember that the 'value' in this awareness isn't primarily to stop the unpleasant emotion, but rather to see the futility, even the harm it produces for your organism. SEEing it is the goal. Stopping will happen automatically.
Yes, I think about it now and realise the family dynamics that were in place. A very orchestrated and invisible chain of reactions.Was the story aspect of this noted at the time ?Has it been seen since ?Not quite
Yes :)ssplash wrote:Ha yes. Can you smile when you think of it now ?At that moment I was too stressed out to think tangentially.
Yes.The 'no choice' by a Self thing, doesn't preclude the value of behaving AS IF there is a choice, sometimes. Does intention fit in here somewhere ?
HeheEnjoy the sense of urgency for the comedy that it is.
Yes :)ssplash wrote:This is big, and will have a much greater impact than just freeing you from unpleasant emotional reactions.Lately I've been dealing with people and was able to see them as a manifestation of life, of me.
Yes, exactly. Nothing to do, not even digest anything.I'm still trying to digest what comes out of this realisation as there's nothing for "me" to do with it.
Yes. Once seen, it no longer as likely that you will automatically react to the triggers that previously resulted in suffering.seeing that its base is fictional.
Not so invisible now. Aye ?and realise the family dynamics that were in place. A very orchestrated and invisible chain of reactions.
This is no insignificant thing.At that moment I was too stressed out to think tangentially.Yes :)Can you smile when you think of it now ?
Yes, me too. ☺As you can see, I'm smiling.
No there isn't, and it's interesting to see what happens to the mind when you've ignored the power of prior conditioning, it calms down and I can feel some kind of non-verbal insight settling in. Some teachers talk about enlightenment in a very ethereal way, referring to the sweetness and no-mind state. The thing is that THIS includes the pain, the mud and the smell of flowers, and I like the idea that as human beings we have an alternative to conditioning whilst living in the world. I hear and read some people that seem very enamoured, almost ecstatic by some scent of reality I can't still appreciate. This feeling of going through a gate and having everything turned upside down. What is that about? They seem to know something I don't ... Is that right?Yes, exactly. Nothing to do, not even digest anything.It's interesting that things are changing. ..but before change and after change, is there anything that is not THIS ?
I am thinking that all emotions have a right to co-exist, and it's specially liberating when the organism is not judging whether or not something is desirable or not. I was moving some heavy items yesterday and welcomed the effort instead of feeling that it was a drag to do it.Perhaps equanimity might happen. (Perhaps not.) It is likely though.
This is a big thing for me. My mum has the flu and she gets very cranky when she's sick. I am staying in her house helping her out and witnessing how her tirades are not affecting me as much as before, because I'm not spending all my energy trying to get her to tell me how nice it is that I'm there, or wanting so much to change the way she feels. As soon as I sense tension and opposition to what I'm doing, I withdraw and see what happens next. I'm not working so hard on protecting my good daughter image, and she's not fighting as hard to blow it either ;-)Once seen, it no longer as likely that you will automatically react to the triggers that previously resulted in suffering.
Yes, indeed.ssplash wrote:Not so invisible now. Aye ?and realise the family dynamics that were in place. A very orchestrated and invisible chain of reactions.
Great. Two big things here. The fact that it's happening, and the fact that you can see it happening. It's a life changer.what happens to the mind when you've ignored the power of prior conditioning, it calms down and I can feel some kind of non-verbal insight settling in.
Yes. i now don't understand that. It is the main reason that people develop unrealistic expectations with awakening. It had me sucked in for many years, and even resulted in doubt thought after awakening. Where are the bells and whistles ? Where is the bliss ? Why can't i manifest a lottery win ? ..and on and on.Some teachers talk about enlightenment in a very ethereal way, referring to the sweetness and no-mind state.
Yes, as human beings, we are capable of experiencing the full range of human emotions. i do have to say though, that pain isn't the same as it used to be, since i don't run from it.The thing is that THIS includes the pain,
Again, i don't know. The many that i have read and spoken to that have gone through the gate relate to "Nothing has changed, but everything is different."This feeling of going through a gate and having everything turned upside down. What is that about?
..a different reaction.I was moving some heavy items yesterday and welcomed the effort instead of feeling that it was a drag to do it.
Beautifully put. Now we might have the intention to extend that from thinking to feeling.I am thinking that all emotions have a right to co-exist, and it's specially liberating when the organism is not judging whether or not something is desirable or not.
Ok, it's easy to get sucked in to the idea that we move to a destination where that doesn't happen. It's subtle, but the seeing it happen is more like a destination that incidentally has a side effect of it not happening.But I still see how some other things absolutely push my buttons and my organism follows the motions. I'll be patient because they are obviously very ingrained.
That may of may not happen. For now allow thoughts, and allow them to pass through with less notice.I want to stop thinking so much
Some of those gurus with the ethereal messages promise this. (for $)just receive my lessons from relaxing
Quite the opposite. Compassion is more likely to emerge as you see how others are actually your own perception.Sometimes I worry that I'll turn into an insensitive person
agree wholeheartedly.I know that change is a chimera and anger a psychological device to maintain the ego, but what's your take on this?
Yes, this freshness is a whole new realm of emotion in itself.The many that i have read and spoken to that have gone through the gate relate to "Nothing has changed, but everything is different."
The "everything is different" isn't just about having a different reaction, it's that much is related to freshly. (like a child)
Could you please say more about this, Vince?Now we might have the intention to extend that from thinking to feeling.
Yes, this is very interesting, because the intention set to aid in the seeing is not forceful will power that changes things, and yet it achieves so much more.ssplash wrote:Ok, it's easy to get sucked in to the idea that we move to a destination where that doesn't happen. It's subtle, but the seeing it happen is more like a destination that incidentally has a side effect of it not happening.But I still see how some other things absolutely push my buttons and my organism follows the motions. I'll be patient because they are obviously very ingrained.
Aha.ssplash wrote:That may of may not happen. For now allow thoughts, and allow them to pass through with less notice.I want to stop thinking so much
What do you mean by "your own perception"? Are you referring to the fact that other's perceptions are mine as we all are one?Compassion is more likely to emerge as you see how others are actually your own perception.
Yes, mind says that there will be some sort of satisfaction in a quenching. In a resolution. That bewilderment is to be resolved.it's important for me to be able to explore them and quench the thirst caused by this bewilderment
Yes, doubt thoughts are almost always present at some point. Old conditioning hangs on for dear life (literally)Do you think that most people that have crossed the gate have the queries and concerns that I pose to you here?
Yes, wonder full.Yes, this freshness is a whole new realm of emotion in itself.
You say; "I am thinking". We need to make the experiential the normal, not the thoughts about it. It would seem that you have had some experiences of this, but the intention to make it the normal is probably a necessary condition for this to happen. (or not)I am thinking that all emotions have a right to co-exist, and it's specially liberating when the organism is not judging whether or not something is desirable or not.Could you please say more about this, Vince?Now we might have the intention to extend that from thinking to feeling.
Absolutely. Using will power only reinforces that which we are trying to avoid. Intention gently sets wheels in motion.yet it achieves so much more.
No, i mean that others are not something/one objective, but in fact apparent others are your interpretation of your perception. Can you grok this ?What do you mean by "your own perception"? Are you referring to the fact that other's perceptions are mine as we all are one?
No, not at all. Acceptance is what allows a clear(er) perception. (emotions arising from resistance distorts it)Is this understanding that resistance is futile something that will prevent us from acting in the world, getting involved in trying to protect the environment, the weak, the oppressed? How does acceptance and action interact?