Bodymind in the works

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince

I went away on a short holiday with my family :) Will reply later on today. Thank you!

Love

Paloma

[ssplash]

Hi, Vnce

the only purpose I can see is living

Can you see that purpose is a mind thing only ?

[/quote]
Yes, it is thought out.

from the same place where all actions come from, from life itself

Is the action emerging from something called life ?

Action is part of the experience, is not emerging as such. I meant life as life force.

Paloma, how will you know when you have recognized what is real and what is concept ?

I don't think I will. Whatever is real will keep on manifesting itself and concept being thought out.

Is there a self with inherent essence, somewhere, running the show?

The self is part of the show.

Big hug,

Paloma

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince

Concept is all thought out, purpose too. Nothing runs the show, both action and the self are part of it. It's not possible to know what's real. Recognition is thinking, concept, story.

Love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Paloma,

It's not possible to know what's real.

Beautiful. Yes, love it.
Can you feel the freedom knowing that you know nothing ?
Do you experience acceptance of what life serves up ?
Are opinions seen as stories. Just more thought stuff ?
Is control and decision making seen to happen without volition ?

love

vince

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince

Back from travelling with my mum, my sis and her kids! What a ride to be with them! It was, of course, absolutely lovely as I adore them and there was a lot of fun and laughter non stop, but also a lot of triggering of conditioned habits and reactions going on, hehe. I was very surprised to observe them happening within me, and the fact that I held on to some attitudes for a long time, as if I was trying to find a way to achieve certain outcomes (which, of course, with family you never do, closure is difficult), whilst at the same time preserve my status as the caring and responsible one. Sometimes the conditioning wouldn't change as we as a family behave in a certain way when we are together, and eventually I catch myself acting different from usual. We go on a roll and emotions run the show, and we almost behave together as an organism! (which of course we are :)

Can you feel the freedom knowing that you know nothing ?

Yes, indeed. It's very enjoyable, but I don't know if I allow myself the pleasure too often, as I spend my time worrying about what will happen. I do see the space that opens when we don't entertain the thought that we are in control.

Do you experience acceptance of what life serves up ?

I'd like to say that I do, but after this week travelling with my family, I think I'm still far from being too accepting :) Although it's getting better, definitely.

Are opinions seen as stories. Just more thought stuff ?

Yes, they are. I often catch myself realising that my own opinions are stories, but I still behave as if they matter a great deal, despite being aware of their fictional nature.

Is control and decision making seen to happen without volition ?

Yes, there's no volition, but there compulsion!

Thank you so much for everything, Vince.

Love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Paloma,

but also a lot of triggering of conditioned habits and reactions going on, hehe. I was very surprised to observe them happening within me

Did you observe them as they were happening, or afterwards ?

I was very surprised to observe them

Did this surprise result in humor or something else ?

as if I was trying to find a way to achieve certain outcomes

Was the story aspect of this noted at the time ?

whilst at the same time preserve my status as the caring and responsible one.

What was the reaction to this as it was observed ?

but I don't know if I allow myself the pleasure too often,

The word suggest a choice here. Is it accurate ?

as I spend my time worrying about what will happen.

"old habits die hard". Do you notice that this is changing ?

after this week travelling with my family, I think I'm still far from being too accepting :) Although it's getting better, definitely.

We are not looking for perfection here. Any indication that 'improvement' is happening is a good sign. (i'm a long way from perfect, but still improving after several years)

but I still behave as if they matter a great deal, despite being aware of their fictional nature.

What is important here is the awareness of it. Sometimes it is appropriate to behave as if they matter. (say for communication purposes, or relationship purposes) If you are aware that you are behaving this way, then you are not sucked into the story.

Yes, there's no volition, but there compulsion!

...and is it seen ?

love

vince

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince

Still settling in after our holiday.

ssplash wrote:

but also a lot of triggering of conditioned habits and reactions going on, hehe. I was very surprised to observe them happening within me

Did you observe them as they were happening, or afterwards ?

At some point I was very upset with my sister and couldn't let go. I did think that what was going on was part of conditioning, but I still felt my irate reaction had a purpose. Now I am detached from it and can analyse it in this way.I hope I will catch myself doing it in the future.

ssplash wrote:

I was very surprised to observe them

Did this surprise result in humor or something else ?

Today I saw myself reacting to people and could see what was going on, and I did smile to myself.

ssplash wrote:

as if I was trying to find a way to achieve certain outcomes

Was the story aspect of this noted at the time ?

Not quite.

ssplash wrote:

whilst at the same time preserve my status as the caring and responsible one.

What was the reaction to this as it was observed ?

I thought about it afterwards. At that moment I was too stressed out to think tangentially.

ssplash wrote:

but I don't know if I allow myself the pleasure too often,

The word suggest a choice here. Is it accurate ?

That's right, there is no choice. I would say that this knowledge is not integrated yet.

ssplash wrote:

as I spend my time worrying about what will happen.

"old habits die hard". Do you notice that this is changing ?

Yes :)

ssplash wrote:

but I still behave as if they matter a great deal, despite being aware of their fictional nature.

What is important here is the awareness of it. Sometimes it is appropriate to behave as if they matter. (say for communication purposes, or relationship purposes) If you are aware that you are behaving this way, then you are not sucked into the story.

Aha, I see. We all have a role to play in the story.

ssplash wrote:

Yes, there's no volition, but there compulsion!

...and is it seen ?

Yes, it is :)

I can see so much potential in this awareness and I can feel a sense of urgency for it to be more pervasive. Lately I've been dealing with people and was able to see them as a manifestation of life, of me. It is very sobering because it is a good antidote against emotional suffering. I've also noticed that it enhances perception, as if I'm able to see more with my very eyes, and sense people differently without projecting my own feelings over my perception of them; I know the story is there, but at least there's space because I don't feel entirely swamped by the interaction and my role in it.

Love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Paloma,

but I still felt my irate reaction had a purpose.

Now, in hindsight, what are your thoughts about this "purpose" ?

I hope I will catch myself doing it in the future.

You will get better and better at this. Just remember that the 'value' in this awareness isn't primarily to stop the unpleasant emotion, but rather to see the futility, even the harm it produces for your organism. SEEing it is the goal. Stopping will happen automatically.

Was the story aspect of this noted at the time ?

Not quite.

Has it been seen since ?

At that moment I was too stressed out to think tangentially.

Ha yes. Can you smile when you think of it now ?

there is no choice. I would say that this knowledge is not integrated yet.

The 'no choice' by a Self thing, doesn't preclude the value of behaving AS IF there is a choice, sometimes.
Does intention fit in here somewhere ?

I can feel a sense of urgency for it to be more pervasive.

That will happen. Enjoy the sense of urgency for the comedy that it is.

Lately I've been dealing with people and was able to see them as a manifestation of life, of me.

This is big, and will have a much greater impact than just freeing you from unpleasant emotional reactions.

love

vince

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince

Thank you so much for your comments, they make me see things more clearly, like shaking off the dust on a carpet.

ssplash wrote:

but I still felt my irate reaction had a purpose.

Now, in hindsight, what are your thoughts about this "purpose" ?

I think that these reactions are manifestations of the belief that we are the agencies of change. Reality shows a different side when we give up on that. I'm still trying to digest what comes out of this realisation as there's nothing for "me" to do with it.

Just remember that the 'value' in this awareness isn't primarily to stop the unpleasant emotion, but rather to see the futility, even the harm it produces for your organism. SEEing it is the goal. Stopping will happen automatically.

I understand. I can see how this would happen, it's like a round about way to understand what's going on by deconstructing it, seeing that its base is fictional.

Was the story aspect of this noted at the time ?

Not quite

Has it been seen since ?

Yes, I think about it now and realise the family dynamics that were in place. A very orchestrated and invisible chain of reactions.

ssplash wrote:

At that moment I was too stressed out to think tangentially.

Ha yes. Can you smile when you think of it now ?

Yes :)

The 'no choice' by a Self thing, doesn't preclude the value of behaving AS IF there is a choice, sometimes. Does intention fit in here somewhere ?

Yes.

Enjoy the sense of urgency for the comedy that it is.

Hehe

ssplash wrote:

Lately I've been dealing with people and was able to see them as a manifestation of life, of me.

This is big, and will have a much greater impact than just freeing you from unpleasant emotional reactions.

Yes :)

As you can see, I'm smiling.

Love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Paloma,

I'm still trying to digest what comes out of this realisation as there's nothing for "me" to do with it.

Yes, exactly. Nothing to do, not even digest anything.
It's interesting that things are changing. ..but before change and after change, is there anything that is not THIS ?
Perhaps equanimity might happen. (Perhaps not.) It is likely though.

seeing that its base is fictional.

Yes. Once seen, it no longer as likely that you will automatically react to the triggers that previously resulted in suffering.

and realise the family dynamics that were in place. A very orchestrated and invisible chain of reactions.

Not so invisible now. Aye ?

At that moment I was too stressed out to think tangentially.

Can you smile when you think of it now ?

Yes :)

This is no insignificant thing.

As you can see, I'm smiling.

Yes, me too. ☺

love

vince

[ssplash]

Hi, lovely Vince

Yes, exactly. Nothing to do, not even digest anything.It's interesting that things are changing. ..but before change and after change, is there anything that is not THIS ?

No there isn't, and it's interesting to see what happens to the mind when you've ignored the power of prior conditioning, it calms down and I can feel some kind of non-verbal insight settling in. Some teachers talk about enlightenment in a very ethereal way, referring to the sweetness and no-mind state. The thing is that THIS includes the pain, the mud and the smell of flowers, and I like the idea that as human beings we have an alternative to conditioning whilst living in the world. I hear and read some people that seem very enamoured, almost ecstatic by some scent of reality I can't still appreciate. This feeling of going through a gate and having everything turned upside down. What is that about? They seem to know something I don't ... Is that right?

Perhaps equanimity might happen. (Perhaps not.) It is likely though.

I am thinking that all emotions have a right to co-exist, and it's specially liberating when the organism is not judging whether or not something is desirable or not. I was moving some heavy items yesterday and welcomed the effort instead of feeling that it was a drag to do it.

Once seen, it no longer as likely that you will automatically react to the triggers that previously resulted in suffering.

This is a big thing for me. My mum has the flu and she gets very cranky when she's sick. I am staying in her house helping her out and witnessing how her tirades are not affecting me as much as before, because I'm not spending all my energy trying to get her to tell me how nice it is that I'm there, or wanting so much to change the way she feels. As soon as I sense tension and opposition to what I'm doing, I withdraw and see what happens next. I'm not working so hard on protecting my good daughter image, and she's not fighting as hard to blow it either ;-)

But I still see how some other things absolutely push my buttons and my organism follows the motions. I'll be patient because they are obviously very ingrained. I tend to try to deconstruct those processes, but I'm left with no information. I want to stop thinking so much and just receive my lessons from relaxing about what's going on. Intention, intention, intention.

ssplash wrote:

and realise the family dynamics that were in place. A very orchestrated and invisible chain of reactions.

Not so invisible now. Aye ?

Yes, indeed.

Sometimes I worry that I'll turn into an insensitive person if I accept everything that happens without getting angry or upset about it in order to change injustices. I know that change is a chimera and anger a psychological device to maintain the ego, but what's your take on this?

Big love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Paloma,

what happens to the mind when you've ignored the power of prior conditioning, it calms down and I can feel some kind of non-verbal insight settling in.

Great. Two big things here. The fact that it's happening, and the fact that you can see it happening. It's a life changer.

Some teachers talk about enlightenment in a very ethereal way, referring to the sweetness and no-mind state.

Yes. i now don't understand that. It is the main reason that people develop unrealistic expectations with awakening. It had me sucked in for many years, and even resulted in doubt thought after awakening. Where are the bells and whistles ? Where is the bliss ? Why can't i manifest a lottery win ? ..and on and on.
i can't say that those that profess such experiences are phoneys. All i can say is that it is not part of my experience. Maybe it will happen, maybe not. It's just part of the great mystery.

The thing is that THIS includes the pain,

Yes, as human beings, we are capable of experiencing the full range of human emotions. i do have to say though, that pain isn't the same as it used to be, since i don't run from it.

This feeling of going through a gate and having everything turned upside down. What is that about?

Again, i don't know. The many that i have read and spoken to that have gone through the gate relate to "Nothing has changed, but everything is different."
The "everything is different" isn't just about having a different reaction, it's that much is related to freshly. (like a child) (Ha, i suppose that is a different reaction)

I was moving some heavy items yesterday and welcomed the effort instead of feeling that it was a drag to do it.

..a different reaction.

I am thinking that all emotions have a right to co-exist, and it's specially liberating when the organism is not judging whether or not something is desirable or not.

Beautifully put. Now we might have the intention to extend that from thinking to feeling.

But I still see how some other things absolutely push my buttons and my organism follows the motions. I'll be patient because they are obviously very ingrained.

Ok, it's easy to get sucked in to the idea that we move to a destination where that doesn't happen. It's subtle, but the seeing it happen is more like a destination that incidentally has a side effect of it not happening.

I want to stop thinking so much

That may of may not happen. For now allow thoughts, and allow them to pass through with less notice.

just receive my lessons from relaxing

Some of those gurus with the ethereal messages promise this. (for $)

Sometimes I worry that I'll turn into an insensitive person

Quite the opposite. Compassion is more likely to emerge as you see how others are actually your own perception.

I know that change is a chimera and anger a psychological device to maintain the ego, but what's your take on this?

agree wholeheartedly.

love

vince

[ssplash]

Hi, Vince

I feel that reading your email we are getting through the nuances of my latest insights, and it's important for me to be able to explore them and quench the thirst caused by this bewilderment :)

Do you think that most people that have crossed the gate have the queries and concerns that I pose to you here?

The many that i have read and spoken to that have gone through the gate relate to "Nothing has changed, but everything is different."
The "everything is different" isn't just about having a different reaction, it's that much is related to freshly. (like a child)

Yes, this freshness is a whole new realm of emotion in itself.

Now we might have the intention to extend that from thinking to feeling.

Could you please say more about this, Vince?

ssplash wrote:

But I still see how some other things absolutely push my buttons and my organism follows the motions. I'll be patient because they are obviously very ingrained.

Ok, it's easy to get sucked in to the idea that we move to a destination where that doesn't happen. It's subtle, but the seeing it happen is more like a destination that incidentally has a side effect of it not happening.

Yes, this is very interesting, because the intention set to aid in the seeing is not forceful will power that changes things, and yet it achieves so much more.

ssplash wrote:

I want to stop thinking so much

That may of may not happen. For now allow thoughts, and allow them to pass through with less notice.

Aha.

Compassion is more likely to emerge as you see how others are actually your own perception.

What do you mean by "your own perception"? Are you referring to the fact that other's perceptions are mine as we all are one?

Is this understanding that resistance is futile something that will prevent us from acting in the world, getting involved in trying to protect the environment, the weak, the oppressed? How does acceptance and action interact?

Thank you so much, Vince. I learn a lot through you :)

Love,

Paloma

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Paloma,

it's important for me to be able to explore them and quench the thirst caused by this bewilderment

Yes, mind says that there will be some sort of satisfaction in a quenching. In a resolution. That bewilderment is to be resolved.
Are any of these actually accurate ?

Do you think that most people that have crossed the gate have the queries and concerns that I pose to you here?

Yes, doubt thoughts are almost always present at some point. Old conditioning hangs on for dear life (literally)
The new is always a bit uncomfortable. (until it becomes the normal)

Yes, this freshness is a whole new realm of emotion in itself.

Yes, wonder full.

I am thinking that all emotions have a right to co-exist, and it's specially liberating when the organism is not judging whether or not something is desirable or not.

Now we might have the intention to extend that from thinking to feeling.

Could you please say more about this, Vince?

You say; "I am thinking". We need to make the experiential the normal, not the thoughts about it. It would seem that you have had some experiences of this, but the intention to make it the normal is probably a necessary condition for this to happen. (or not)

yet it achieves so much more.

Absolutely. Using will power only reinforces that which we are trying to avoid. Intention gently sets wheels in motion.

What do you mean by "your own perception"? Are you referring to the fact that other's perceptions are mine as we all are one?

No, i mean that others are not something/one objective, but in fact apparent others are your interpretation of your perception. Can you grok this ?

Is this understanding that resistance is futile something that will prevent us from acting in the world, getting involved in trying to protect the environment, the weak, the oppressed? How does acceptance and action interact?

No, not at all. Acceptance is what allows a clear(er) perception. (emotions arising from resistance distorts it)
With that clearer, wider perspective, appropriate action is easier seen (and taken)

love

vince

[ssplash]

Dear Vince,

I'm struck in bed by the flu. Will write back very soon.

Love,

Paloma