Stream Entry

[Alless]

I think this is the whole deal right?

Do you THINK it is or could it be because you are actually SEEING it is?

more confused than ever, where do I look now?

Is there actually any "where" to look or is there just LOOKING / SEEING happening?





If no thought is entertained can there be any confusion?




Hug

[Nicholas]

Sorry for the delay. been working, thinking stuff, trying different methods, looking there and here. also, life got in the way. but I never stopped dedicating at least a few minutes to this.

I think this is the whole deal right?

Do you THINK it is or could it be because you are actually SEEING it is?

I actually don't know. I get these insights then they just... vanish and don't matter anymore.

more confused than ever, where do I look now?

Is there actually any "where" to look or is there just LOOKING / SEEING happening?

well, there's always a "place" to put my attention on. thoughts. visuals. sounds.

If no thought is entertained can there be any confusion?

without thoughts there are no confusion, but I guess I'm not ready to go there yet

...

Am I overcomplicating myself switching methods all the time?

Maybe... better do a simple practice and keep at it?

These days tried to focus/looking at different stuff. My thoughts, or the senses, or the present moment but trying to push thoughts gently.
But ... all of these seem "heavy".
Instead, what seems to be more lightweight, is just looking at where attention goes. that's it. That's the most simple and lighter activity.

But EVEN THEN, when I forget to "look" at this attention, it seems like "something" changes. And I'm starting to think that's a thought too. Like, there's a thought that says "remember to look at attention".

Anyways. How about I just focus only on this practice? Will that help? Instead of going there and there with different methods? Maybe just go deep with one?

hug

[Alless]

without thoughts there are no confusion, but I guess I'm not ready to go there yet

You say you are not ready to go there yet. Yet you clearly say that there is no confusion without thought.
How would you actually know that there is no confusion without thoughts if you hadn't already been there?

well, there's always a "place" to put my attention on. thoughts. visuals. sounds.

Rather then follow attention to thoughts. visuals. sounds, what happens when you put attention on attention itself?




And particularly what happens when you trace attention back to its source? What do you experience there?

Anyways. How about I just focus only on this practice? Will that help? Instead of going there and there with different methods? Maybe just go deep with one?

What FEELS like the way to go?





Hug

[Nicholas]

without thoughts there are no confusion, but I guess I'm not ready to go there yet

You say you are not ready to go there yet. Yet you clearly say that there is no confusion without thought.
How would you actually know that there is no confusion without thoughts if you hadn't already been there?

you are right, I'm contradicting myself. I truly have no idea.

well, there's always a "place" to put my attention on. thoughts. visuals. sounds.

Rather then follow attention to thoughts. visuals. sounds, what happens when you put attention on attention itself?
And particularly what happens when you trace attention back to its source? What do you experience there?

OK, excellent, I like this one. This will be my next exercise.
I have no idea how to put attention on attention itself.
Will work with this from now on.

Anyways. How about I just focus only on this practice? Will that help? Instead of going there and there with different methods? Maybe just go deep with one?

What FEELS like the way to go?

not sure, BUT, your exercise seems the most lightweight yet!

hug

[Alless]

I look for your post when you're ready Nicholas 😊

[Nicholas]

Sorry for the delay!

Let's see...

+ Haven't found a reliable way to "observe the observer", however...
+ I found I can orient my attention into the "space" between senses and mind. To put it in another way: what I focus on, is not in the mind, and is neither in the senses... it's like the abscence of them.
+ It's not something solid. In fact, most of the time it's me just trying not to latch my attention onto anything solid (senses, thoughts)
+ something very interesting is that, it's not hard to do.
+ also, it's easy to "not think" in this state. as in: if I try to focus on my breath for example, it's easy to fall for stories in the mind or stuff like that. but with this "method"? it doesn't happen. stories don't develop or if they do.... they happen "around" my attention and are extremely short... just a thought or two. In fact... mind goes super super quiet.
+ but if I close my eyes I get drowsy in like 10 minutes haha
+ best news? been doing this for 9 days already so I haven't changed methods :)

do I have your permission to keep doing this?

[Alless]

A couple of things around what you report Nicholas

Haven't found a reliable way to "observe the observer",

Could it be that the reason is that there is no observer to be found and there is just observing?

I found I can orient my attention into the "space" between senses and mind.

Is there any boundary between the "space" you refer to and that which is observing?

it's not hard to do.
+ also, it's easy to "not think" in this state.

Does this ease come about when you are doing something that is not hard or because in these moments you are actually not doing anything? In other words is there just seeing which is there all the time without any doing of the seeing?

best news? been doing this for 9 days already so I haven't changed methods :)

do I have your permission to keep doing this?

No permission necessary Nicholas. Just continue to follow you intuition and simply keep watching !

Hugs

[Nicholas]

Haven't found a reliable way to "observe the observer",

Could it be that the reason is that there is no observer to be found and there is just observing?

I can't answer that question. been trying to answer it since we began. I keep going in circles.
There's an observer.
do I have evidence? no.
if I don't look at the mind for answers what do I have? nothing

maybe my issue is that I give up too fast and then fall back into a mind answer?
maybe I should ask the question over and over again, for days, weeks, months... without giving up? just asking the question and looking at senses?

I found I can orient my attention into the "space" between senses and mind.

Is there any boundary between the "space" you refer to and that which is observing?

there's just a bunch of stimulus. that's it.

it's not hard to do.
+ also, it's easy to "not think" in this state.

Does this ease come about when you are doing something that is not hard or because in these moments you are actually not doing anything? In other words is there just seeing which is there all the time without any doing of the seeing?

oh it requires some effort which means the mind just unravels and makes 100x noise just to annoy me


so... maybe just should try to keep things simple? ask just one question, don't look at the mind, and see what arises. if nothing happens, keep going...?
even if it takes days... weeks... months?

hug

[Alless]

if I don't look at the mind for answers what do I have? nothing

Of course there is nothing - according to the mind.
What if you really LOOK at that nothing? What do you experience when you simply totally relax and let the experiencing of seeing, feeling, listening, tasting, smelling be experienced fully without any thought which includes the label (thought of "nothing") that is habitually attached? Is that experiencing actually NOTHING?




FWIW words, in and of themselves, often give us pointers to the truth.

What if its NO-thing that is being experienced when we look rather than "nothing" which the mind interprets as voidness, as inertness, as so called vacuum?




What if what the mind says is nonsense? What if what the mind says is actually non-sense? Just like the thought about an apple never is the actual experience of an apple so what the mind says about what is experienced in the senses is never what is actually experienced in sense. Total non-sense.

This is why what the mind says about truth is never the truth only a story about truth. We only experience what is true by experiencing it directly NOT by thinking about it.

Its a bit like looking in your pocket for your keys but when you put your hand into the pocket they are not there. But you are mystified because you are sure that's where you put them. No amount of thinking they must be there will ever make them appear there simply because they are not there. (The mind will likely be very dismissive of this analogy)

so... maybe just should try to keep things simple? ask just one question, don't look at the mind, and see what arises. if nothing happens, keep going...?
even if it takes days... weeks... months?

It needn't take days weeks months. In fact its impossible for it to take days weeks months. It is the subtle belief(s) - a thought about a thought that keeps us from the truth to the point where it seems like months and years of searching. This can only be experienced NOW. Never in the future. You are experiencing it right now and don't realize it because of some subtle subtle thought that is believed at the same time which is clouding the SEEING. Yes keep it simple .....so simple that you accept what is EXPERIENCED in this very moment as you LOOK.In fact LOOKING without ANY thought in this one instant and being honest about what is seen is all that is needed. Belief in ANY thought about what is happening destroys the simplicity that is unceasingly offered in present moment direct experience.

So when you LOOK HONESTLY and DIRECTLY right now is there - or is there not - a separate independent entity running the whole show that you call Mariano's life? Or is there no-thing experiencing experience? Is there any-"thing" other than total, unencumbered, boundaryless, indescribable "openness" (no-thing that seems like blankness to the mind) experiencing the present moment?



Hugs

[Nicholas]

Hello Alless. I never stopped practicing/inquiring.

What if you really LOOK at that nothing? What do you experience when you simply totally relax and let the experiencing of seeing, feeling, listening, tasting, smelling be experienced fully without any thought which includes the label (thought of "nothing") that is habitually attached? Is that experiencing actually NOTHING?

oh...
this might sound like a dumb answer but what I actually experience is "sounds, sensations, visions, smells, tastes... but also thoughts"

What if its NO-thing that is being experienced when we look rather than "nothing" which the mind interprets as voidness, as inertness, as so called vacuum?

right, there's always some kind of stimulus

This is why what the mind says about truth is never the truth only a story about truth. We only experience what is true by experiencing it directly NOT by thinking about it.

Its a bit like looking in your pocket for your keys but when you put your hand into the pocket they are not there. But you are mystified because you are sure that's where you put them. No amount of thinking they must be there will ever make them appear there simply because they are not there. (The mind will likely be very dismissive of this analogy)

is this an analogy for "believing there is a me yet no amount of thinking will make it appear" ?

So when you LOOK HONESTLY and DIRECTLY right now is there - or is there not - a separate independent entity running the whole show that you call Mariano's life? Or is there no-thing experiencing experience? Is there any-"thing" other than total, unencumbered, boundaryless, indescribable "openness" (no-thing that seems like blankness to the mind) experiencing the present moment?

ah that's the problem! I just don't know how to look honestly and directly! hahaha.

...

been working with different inquiries/questions/methods.

+ asking where's Mariano, what's Mariano. looking into it
+ then looking at distractions
+ then looking at thoughts, managed to "watch them" for a while but could never repeat that situation
+ then looking at the chain of events (distraction, fatigue, focus, etc)
+ watching everything
+ looking at thoughts "from a distance"
+ considering the mind "a bag of fighting cats", not listening to it. just focusing on what's in front of me
+ but's not possible to do for a long time because I get distracted or stuff like that

there was a night where I took edible weed and for a moment... I could see, clearly... how I have zero control over anything. did not control my thoughts, or my body, or the movement of the head and eyes. it was very interesting. it was only a couple seconds.

Then I arrived to... a conclusion? a method? ->

I can't stop switching methods, can't stop thinking (not the goal to stop it of course). Can't stop getting distracted.
I say to myself, while inquiring, "ok, let's focus on this, let's focus on that, let's try this, that"
Bro... if there's no "me" in control, then there's NOTHING I can do to avoid every single change that is going on during this work.

So I try to look into that.

This means: I get distracted? I switched the method? having a lot of thoughts? doesn't matter anymore because I don't have control over any of that.
So now I work with the assumption that if there's no "me" then there's nothing I can do, nothing I can control. Then nothing to worry about.

Maybe this is the key. It feels right. It seems to precede everything. If I just assume, that there's absolutely ANYTHING I can control, not even what I'm focusing on, and try to keep that in mind (but then again, I can't control this keeping in mind thing either).. then maybe...?

Anyways, let's see what happens in the next days/weeks.

Hugs

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas,

I never stopped practicing/inquiring.

Never thought you did !!!

oh...
this might sound like a dumb answer but what I actually experience is "sounds, sensations, visions, smells, tastes... but also thoughts"

Dumb to the mind but isn't that the truth? And when we really get curious we find there is no-thing to be found in all of "them" !!

is this an analogy for "believing there is a me yet no amount of thinking will make it appear" ?

Spot on Nicholas

ah that's the problem! I just don't know how to look honestly and directly! hahaha.

I beg to differ. You are actually seeing directly its just that there are thoughts that sneak in without you spotting them and they are believed over and above what is actually seen.

I can't stop switching methods,

Just watch it happening...

if there's no "me" then there's nothing I can do, nothing I can control. Then nothing to worry about.

Just watch.... just let seeing happen and see what happens 😊😊😊

not even what I'm focusing on

Let focusing happen or not happen. Focusing is a mechanism of the mind. Again just see it happening.
What happens when you let your gaze soften and let focusing relax ?





Keep at it and watch very carefully to see whether thoughts come in and unwittingly you take them as an answer rather than simply reporting what you are seeing or experiencing.


Hug

Alan

[Nicholas]

What happens when you let your gaze soften and let focusing relax ?

I actually don't try to do anything in particular, because letting my gaze soften and relaxing will eventually lead to a focus and tense.

I just watch phenomena arise with the assumption that I have 0 control over anything.

Some realizations that came today
+ saying "I believe there is a 'me' around here, I know there's a me, I feel there's a me, etc etc"... that's just another thought!
+ a couple times I said "oh I'm going slow, I wish I could go faster, blahblah" then you explained that this is a process and it has its own time... and now I see why. There's absolutely 0 control over speed, nothing I can do to make it faster or slower. It really has its own... life
+ given the fact that I have no control... over anything. then maybe I can finally start letting go.
+ relaxing feels easier because I can't even control that, again! whatever road the mind wants to go, it will do it
+ a bit of crying, then a bit of laughing happens at the "absurdity" of everything
+ I think I'm finally understanding this... but that's also a quality of the mind! so how about... "something is being released" ?

hug

[Alless]

Nicholas

because letting my gaze soften and relaxing will eventually lead to a focus and tense.

I'm not seeing what you are meaning here. As long as your gaze is soft and relaxed that's the way it is until a thought creates a focus.
How does a soft and relaxed gaze in and of itself lead to a focus and tense?

saying "I believe there is a 'me' around here, I know there's a me, I feel there's a me, etc etc"... that's just another thought!

Yes !

Is that truth now the truth for you that the notion of an entity independent from all of life called "me" is just a thought?

I think I'm finally understanding this... but that's also a quality of the mind!

Indeed.

so how about... "something is being released" ?

I'd really love to hear more about something being released.
What else can you say about this something that is being released? For example is it a seeing, a knowing, a bodily sensation? Tell me more about this experience of releasing



Hug

Alan

[Nicholas]

Hello Alan

because letting my gaze soften and relaxing will eventually lead to a focus and tense.

I'm not seeing what you are meaning here. As long as your gaze is soft and relaxed that's the way it is until a thought creates a focus.
How does a soft and relaxed gaze in and of itself lead to a focus and tense?

still not sure. I'm investigating into it. Eventually this will be clear.

saying "I believe there is a 'me' around here, I know there's a me, I feel there's a me, etc etc"... that's just another thought!

Yes !

Is that truth now the truth for you that the notion of an entity independent from all of life called "me" is just a thought?

I still don't know what the truth is from personal experience, I just know that thoughts keep running the show

I'd really love to hear more about something being released.
What else can you say about this something that is being released? For example is it a seeing, a knowing, a bodily sensation? Tell me more about this experience of releasing

all this work seem to be kind of a ... awareness of more and more and more stuff. mostly thought identities and assumptions. those are being released.

for example, these insights I had today:

+ I was walking on the street doing my "meditation work, investigating thought" and then I got these thoughts of "whats the point of this, i never gonna accomplish anything, why i meditate blahlah" and I could clearly SEE how those are just thoughts. it is one thing to think "they are thoughts" and another different one to really see the weight of them. because as soon as that seeing happened... they were dropped

+ all this drama about changing methods? those are thoughts too

+ finally, the most important one: right now I don't even know what's my method, but I know I'm still practicing. It's super hard to describe, because I know I'm doing something when I go out and dedicate time to this work, it is just getting more and more hard to conceptualize what kind of practice I'm doing, it just gets more abstract with every insight. that's good I guess. Because it's not more of a "oh yeah, now I'm going to do THIS, focus on that, blahblah". Now it's closer to a ... intuitive practice.

does that make any sense?

hug

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

because as soon as that seeing happened... they were dropped

Right there .....do you see how powerful CLEAR SEEING is?

+ all this drama about changing methods? those are thoughts too

Haa yes !

it is just getting more and more hard to conceptualize

Good news !

it just gets more abstract with every insight.

The harder is gets to conceptualize makes it LESS abstract and closer to the real.
I'm feeling that you are using the term abstract here in the context that it is getting harder to put into words.
Is that what's happening?

does that make any sense?

Yes it does

it's closer to a ... intuitive practice.

This is where the rubber hits the road. Good "work" Sounds like something is different compared to a few months ago.
Keep at this !!

Hug

Alan