The Gate

Hi,

Perhaps it is more true to say that the thoughts themselves say/indicate that "they take content from a previous thought".
Perhaps? Why the perhaps? Is it more true or is it not?
I'm not sure here. It might be a more correct way of describing it, but its not in my experience.

If it is not thoughts themselves that say/indicate that "they take content from a previous thought" what does?

Look in your experience, what are you holding together right now? Are you holding sounds, colours, sensations? Are you holding thoughts? Or all is changing freely and effortlessly, alive?
It’s all changing freely and without effort and alive

Please answer all 4 questions, not just the last one.

Much love,

If it is not thoughts themselves that say/indicate that "they take content from a previous thought" what does?

Well, that may just be the fan in your text. I don’t know. But it’s a good pointer, thank you.

Look in your experience, what are you holding together right now?

I’m not sure. But I think I’m having a heard time letting go. Letting go of trying to control myself.

Are you holding sounds, colours, sensations? Are you holding thoughts?

The breath has relaxed the last couple of days. There may other unconscious tensions in the body that makes me somehow feel that I’m in control. If you understand what I mean. Perhaps I’m sometimes also controlling the thoughts.

Or all is changing freely and effortlessly, alive?

I sense that it’s changing freely and effortlessly, but the fan is still moving.

Hi Hakan,

I know you're "having trouble letting go" as you call it. That's why we've been chatting since early November for 26 pages. When you do let go and see how easy & natural it is, you may laugh.

This sense of holding on & controlling is often called "doership." You may have done the exercise below and it may come up again in your review, but it is particularly relevant to this idea that there is a "you" "doing" something.

Yes, the fan is still moving - with no "mover" causing it.

Relaxing is absolutely necessary and you can't force it. You will relax when you relax - if you ever do. We don't choose that, either!


Try this:

Doership Exercise

Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there may still be the feeling of identification of being the ‘doer.’ That it still ‘feels’ like there is a self that is the ‘chooser.’

So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:

Look on your right.

Then look on your left.

Finally, bring your head back to center, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).

When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).

And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


To address some of your replies:

There may other unconscious tensions in the body that makes me somehow feel that I’m in control. If you understand what I mean. Perhaps I’m sometimes also controlling the thoughts.

Does that sound backwards to you? Tension meaning "in control?"

If you are controlling thoughts, teach me how to do that. What steps do you take to control thoughts? Can you always control them?

Keep posting every day.

Much love,

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

No, I cant turn seeing off. It feels like seeing somehow comes before 'me'.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

No

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

No

Can you turn off seeing?

No

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

No

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

So - I can't choose what's in front of me, thats true. And I find it true that thoughts just arise out of nowhere, without any choice being made. And when I turn the head in different locations it gives me the same feeling as when turning the palm - its being done without me choosing it. I guess there isn't anything that I can choose. Its in 'my' experience now - it feels like I don't have any control over what is happening to 'me'. Everything 'I' do/think is somehow already decided, before 'I' do it or think it. And it often feels like freedom.

To address some of your replies:
There may other unconscious tensions in the body that makes me somehow feel that I’m in control. If you understand what I mean. Perhaps I’m sometimes also controlling the thoughts.

Does that sound backwards to you? Tension meaning "in control?"

Yes, it sounds backwards now that you point it out. I'm not sure why its being done. Perhaps I want to protect myself, to try to look better/more in control than I actually am, to mask my feelings and so on. I also often have a difficulty looking into peoples eyes. Its been like that for many, many years. When the openness is there, which it often is now, it is not the same. Then I like to look into peoples eyes. I enjoy very much to just look at / observe people when the openness is there. But there is some tension in the muscles around my eyes and around my cheek. Its not making 'me' be in control, but its there for some reason.

If you are controlling thoughts, teach me how to do that. What steps do you take to control thoughts? Can you always control them?

I still have the sense sometimes that I control thoughts when I'm conscious of them. But its like a 'leftover', I don't really believe in it anymore.

Hi Hakan,

Yes, it sounds backwards now that you point it out. I'm not sure why its being done. Perhaps I want to protect myself, to try to look better/more in control than I actually am, to mask my feelings and so on. I also often have a difficulty looking into peoples eyes. Its been like that for many, many years. When the openness is there, which it often is now, it is not the same. Then I like to look into peoples eyes. I enjoy very much to just look at / observe people when the openness is there. But there is some tension in the muscles around my eyes and around my cheek. Its not making 'me' be in control, but its there for some reason.

Re-read this entire paragraph and LOOK at these stories that thought is telling you!

"protect myself" - WHAT self?

"look better/more in control" WHAT control? WHAT does "better" even mean?

"Mask my feelings" WHERE is this person that has these feeling/emotions? Emotions = Sensation + Thought Arising

"Difficulty looking into people's eyes" Is that ACTUAL EXPERIENCE?

"Tension in the muscles around your eyes and cheek. . . is there for some reason????" "Reason" is that ACTUAL EXPERIENCE? Or only content of thought???

If you are controlling thoughts, teach me how to do that. What steps do you take to control thoughts? Can you always control them?
I still have the sense sometimes that I control thoughts when I'm conscious of them. But its like a 'leftover', I don't really believe in it anymore.

Do you notice the subtle way in which you never answered this question? Please answer the question!


We are going around in circles.

Thank you!

Yes, it sounds backwards now that you point it out. I'm not sure why its being done. Perhaps I want to protect myself, to try to look better/more in control than I actually am, to mask my feelings and so on. I also often have a difficulty looking into peoples eyes. Its been like that for many, many years. When the openness is there, which it often is now, it is not the same. Then I like to look into peoples eyes. I enjoy very much to just look at / observe people when the openness is there. But there is some tension in the muscles around my eyes and around my cheek. Its not making 'me' be in control, but its there for some reason.
Re-read this entire paragraph and LOOK at these stories that thought is telling you!

"protect myself" - WHAT self?

Ok, thoughts are thoughts and the content is not actual experience. It sounds backward, thats true.
"Protect myself" - why should that be done if there is no self? No clue. Why is there still a sense of self which feels like a fan or a magnetic field? Don't know.

"look better/more in control" WHAT control?

If there truly is no self at all then there is no control to execute.

WHAT does "better" even mean?

Its just a word.

"Mask my feelings" WHERE is this person that has these feeling/emotions? Emotions = Sensation + Thought Arising

There may be no person at all, thats true. Its in direct experience here.

"Difficulty looking into people's eyes" Is that ACTUAL EXPERIENCE?

No, there are body sensations and thoughts arising as a result.

"Tension in the muscles around your eyes and cheek. . . is there for some reason????" "Reason" is that ACTUAL EXPERIENCE? Or only content of thought???

Ok, thats content of thought again.

If you are controlling thoughts, teach me how to do that. What steps do you take to control thoughts? Can you always control them?
I still have the sense sometimes that I control thoughts when I'm conscious of them. But its like a 'leftover', I don't really believe in it anymore.
Do you notice the subtle way in which you never answered this question? Please answer the question!

No, there is no control over thoughts - they come and they go and thats that.

Hi Hakan,

Thank you.

Why is there still a sense of self which feels like a fan or a magnetic field? Don't know.

"Why" has no answer, as best can be told. Things just ARE.

Can you find any supposed "reason" for ANYthing that is NOT content of thought?


Much love,

Can you find any supposed "reason" for ANYthing that is NOT content of thought?

No

Hi Hakan,

I honestly do not know what you're looking for that I can help with any further than I already have. I am worn out on pointing and pointing and still you have your doubts and reservations. You're totally entitled to have those and I don't want you to say what I want to hear, but I have run out of steam.

That is part of why I suggested that you either take a break or allow someone else to try guiding you. We have built a good rapport and you have followed the pointers that I've given. I just don't know what else to do.

What do you think?

Much love,

Going out on a limb here, for full disclosure, it is possible that what would help is more Work of Byron Katie, but I've been told I can't do that here.

Much love,

OK, I understand. I am so very grateful for all your help, Stacy, and I have made so much progress during these months. I will continue doing the work and I will consider starting over with another guide. I will send you a friend request on Facebook, if you don’t want to just ignore this request. If you ever come to Sweden you are very welcome to stay in our house outside of Stockholm.

Thank you, so much.

You can continue your review and working with the exercises you have. I know you're very dedicated and committed to pursuing this, I appreciate your understanding my being at a loss about what to do.

Much love,

Hi Hakan,

Ilona has offered to guide you. I will send her a link to your thread and you can chat with her about that.

Thank you!

Hi Hakan,
Lovely to meet you. I see you have a very very long thread going... :)
Are you ready to end the search?

Love.

Hi Ilona!

Yes, I’m ready.

I have gotten so much help and love from Stacy - so grateful for her guiding.
She says that it’s probably fear standing in the way and I believe her.