Hey Bob!
Did you have a shot at those answers yet? Don’t worry if it is not perfect :)
Take two!
Re: Take two!
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.
Re: Take two!
Hello Gondwana,
The reason I haven't gotten back to you sooner, is that I've been feeling kind of stuck (again, I'm using "I" for simplicity). As I mentioned, the day after what felt like a "final realization", there were a couple of very upsetting incidents. Part of the reason they might have felt upsetting is that Seeing resulted in a very open, somewhat vulnerable state.
This felt like a real setback, and it reactivated my doubting thoughts (e.g. maybe there really is a self, I'm just fooling myself that I "Saw", etc.) and left me in a kind of limbo. I've been doing the usual looking (Who is stuck, who is upset, etc.), which dissipates these thoughts/feelings effectively, but they tend to return. Another thought that has arisen is that I've come down from the "high" of Seeing and I want that high to return (which is unrealistic).
In any case, there is vacillation between two kinds of thoughts: (1) I'm back to square one and need to start over with the LU exercises and; (2) this is nonsense, I really did See (once and for all) and there is a struggle to find a new equilibrium state between the transient bliss I experienced and the old "self-oriented" existence.
I've postponed answering the final questions, hoping that this confused doubting state will pass...
Hope all is well with you,
Bob
The reason I haven't gotten back to you sooner, is that I've been feeling kind of stuck (again, I'm using "I" for simplicity). As I mentioned, the day after what felt like a "final realization", there were a couple of very upsetting incidents. Part of the reason they might have felt upsetting is that Seeing resulted in a very open, somewhat vulnerable state.
This felt like a real setback, and it reactivated my doubting thoughts (e.g. maybe there really is a self, I'm just fooling myself that I "Saw", etc.) and left me in a kind of limbo. I've been doing the usual looking (Who is stuck, who is upset, etc.), which dissipates these thoughts/feelings effectively, but they tend to return. Another thought that has arisen is that I've come down from the "high" of Seeing and I want that high to return (which is unrealistic).
In any case, there is vacillation between two kinds of thoughts: (1) I'm back to square one and need to start over with the LU exercises and; (2) this is nonsense, I really did See (once and for all) and there is a struggle to find a new equilibrium state between the transient bliss I experienced and the old "self-oriented" existence.
I've postponed answering the final questions, hoping that this confused doubting state will pass...
Hope all is well with you,
Bob
Re: Take two!
Quick follow-up:
I think that most of what's been arising here lately is simply that there were a few upsetting days, which tends to lead to negative, doubting, thoughts. Unless you have further thoughts, I'll try to take a shot at the questions tomorrow!
Bob
I think that most of what's been arising here lately is simply that there were a few upsetting days, which tends to lead to negative, doubting, thoughts. Unless you have further thoughts, I'll try to take a shot at the questions tomorrow!
Bob
Re: Take two!
Yes! Looks like you answered the question :)I think that most of what's been arising here lately is simply that there were a few upsetting days, which tends to lead to negative, doubting, thoughts. Unless you have further thoughts, I'll try to take a shot at the questions tomorrow!
Just relax.
Stop holding onto the story (thoughts) again. Look at things as they are: Look only at present experience.
Next time this happens, try reporting the following from actual experience:
What is vulnerable?somewhat vulnerable state
What is set back?This felt like a real setback
How exactly are these YOUR thoughts?my doubting thoughts
Have you authored them?
Do you need to worry about them if they are not YOURS?
Do have a shot at the questions once you feel ready!
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.
Re: Take two!
OK, time to take a shot at the questions. With my daughter home, things are pretty busy here, so I may have to do this in pieces:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No and no. There are only perceptions and thoughts arising and passing. Sometimes a perception arises and a thought labels it "self", but there is no self there.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self is that there is a "me" that is controlling things, that can get hurt, that can experience various "emotions". That there is a little homunculus "inside" this body that is in charge and that owns experiences. The illusion is obviously created by childhood conditioning and can, at times, be very strong. Its funny, when I try to summon up the "self feeling" (which is nothing but a perception accompanied by a subtle thought), I usually do it by quietly saying "I am Bob". What's funny is that if a different letter is substituted ("Q am Bob"), there is no "self feeling"!
Earlier in the LU process, there was a belief that "I" can control my thoughts. For example, I believed that "I" can think of a blue circle anytime "I" want to. On close inspection, it was seen that what actually happens is that a thought arises spontaneously ("I can think of a blue circle") followed by the spontaneous visualization of a blue circle. What finally helped me crash the gate was the strong realization that ALL thoughts are just arising without a controller.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
As I had told you, the original feeling was that the "seeking spring" had unwound - that there was nothing further to look for. This was experienced as a relief - a letting go - and accompanied by a lot of happiness. I've told you what happened after that - a couple of bad days accompanied by vivid thoughts that perhaps I was just fooling myself.
The blissful feeling has passed, but there is still the feeling that the spring is unwound. Less of a desire to read "spiritual" books (which I had pretty much stopped doing during this year of LU inquiry anyway) and discuss spiritual issues.
There has been a fair amount of tension and unhappiness arising during the last few days, but this is the result of stuff that's been happening at work and home. But when I look, its seen that this is arising to no one, and that bings some relief. It feels like the tension/unhappiness is being "held" differently. Because of my biology and life history, there is a often tension and dissatisfaction here - I don't expect that to instantly vanish because of Seeing (although I admit that there was the hope of this early on!). Looking more often is helpful.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
When you told me not to reply to your question until I had a clear answer, it upped the ante. I think I mentioned that I took a walk outside during work and there was intensive focus on what was going on. The "last bit" was the clear recognition that all "my" thoughts were just arising. When that was seen, the illusion of control was relinquished. This was followed by an experience of letting go and happiness.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
This part I see very clearly. There is no "one" to have free will. When necessary, there can be focusing and attention paid to some issue, but this arises spontaneously. It all just arises - decisions, intentions, choice, etc. These thoughts are accompanied by actions arising.
6) Anything to add?
I think I'll take a break for now and get back with some final thoughts. I'll sum up and discuss some of the "issues" that are arising here.
Bob
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No and no. There are only perceptions and thoughts arising and passing. Sometimes a perception arises and a thought labels it "self", but there is no self there.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self is that there is a "me" that is controlling things, that can get hurt, that can experience various "emotions". That there is a little homunculus "inside" this body that is in charge and that owns experiences. The illusion is obviously created by childhood conditioning and can, at times, be very strong. Its funny, when I try to summon up the "self feeling" (which is nothing but a perception accompanied by a subtle thought), I usually do it by quietly saying "I am Bob". What's funny is that if a different letter is substituted ("Q am Bob"), there is no "self feeling"!
Earlier in the LU process, there was a belief that "I" can control my thoughts. For example, I believed that "I" can think of a blue circle anytime "I" want to. On close inspection, it was seen that what actually happens is that a thought arises spontaneously ("I can think of a blue circle") followed by the spontaneous visualization of a blue circle. What finally helped me crash the gate was the strong realization that ALL thoughts are just arising without a controller.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
As I had told you, the original feeling was that the "seeking spring" had unwound - that there was nothing further to look for. This was experienced as a relief - a letting go - and accompanied by a lot of happiness. I've told you what happened after that - a couple of bad days accompanied by vivid thoughts that perhaps I was just fooling myself.
The blissful feeling has passed, but there is still the feeling that the spring is unwound. Less of a desire to read "spiritual" books (which I had pretty much stopped doing during this year of LU inquiry anyway) and discuss spiritual issues.
There has been a fair amount of tension and unhappiness arising during the last few days, but this is the result of stuff that's been happening at work and home. But when I look, its seen that this is arising to no one, and that bings some relief. It feels like the tension/unhappiness is being "held" differently. Because of my biology and life history, there is a often tension and dissatisfaction here - I don't expect that to instantly vanish because of Seeing (although I admit that there was the hope of this early on!). Looking more often is helpful.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
When you told me not to reply to your question until I had a clear answer, it upped the ante. I think I mentioned that I took a walk outside during work and there was intensive focus on what was going on. The "last bit" was the clear recognition that all "my" thoughts were just arising. When that was seen, the illusion of control was relinquished. This was followed by an experience of letting go and happiness.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
This part I see very clearly. There is no "one" to have free will. When necessary, there can be focusing and attention paid to some issue, but this arises spontaneously. It all just arises - decisions, intentions, choice, etc. These thoughts are accompanied by actions arising.
6) Anything to add?
I think I'll take a break for now and get back with some final thoughts. I'll sum up and discuss some of the "issues" that are arising here.
Bob
Re: Take two!
My answer to the final question:
6) Anything to add?
Not really. It looks like the gate has been crashed here.
The remaining issue is what I mentioned in my last post. Now that the initial high has passed (it lasted for several days), it often feels that consciousness-wise, things aren't all that different. At work, for example, there is the usual stress and preoccupation with the thought stream. The usual ups and downs.
However, things are different. When I Look, no self is found, which is always a relief. I'm still settling into this...
Bob
6) Anything to add?
Not really. It looks like the gate has been crashed here.
The remaining issue is what I mentioned in my last post. Now that the initial high has passed (it lasted for several days), it often feels that consciousness-wise, things aren't all that different. At work, for example, there is the usual stress and preoccupation with the thought stream. The usual ups and downs.
However, things are different. When I Look, no self is found, which is always a relief. I'm still settling into this...
Bob
Re: Take two!
One last thing (sorry for all the messages today).
One of the best effects is that almost every time I Look, a smile comes to my face. That has come to be my best indication that I'm Seeing!
Bob
One of the best effects is that almost every time I Look, a smile comes to my face. That has come to be my best indication that I'm Seeing!
Bob
Re: Take two!
Thank you for this Bob, there is beautiful clarity here :)
You are through!
Do not worry about stressful situations at work still having some impact. Now that it has been seen, it can never be "un-seen". Getting through the gate is not the end of the journey -- it is just the beginning of a transformation, to deepen and embody this new realisation.
Over time, these situations become more effortless and a flow can be found. The key is to keep looking, as you just discovered! Now that you are free, all this becomes possible; simply dissolve difficult situations by looking at what is real every time, always ask:
WHAT is stressed/upset/hurt/suffering/etc?
We can also do some further investigation in the "After Gate" forums once we are done here, to continue breaking these down.
I will now show your thread to the other guides, and see if there are any additional questions.
Be back shortly.
You are through!
Do not worry about stressful situations at work still having some impact. Now that it has been seen, it can never be "un-seen". Getting through the gate is not the end of the journey -- it is just the beginning of a transformation, to deepen and embody this new realisation.
Over time, these situations become more effortless and a flow can be found. The key is to keep looking, as you just discovered! Now that you are free, all this becomes possible; simply dissolve difficult situations by looking at what is real every time, always ask:
WHAT is stressed/upset/hurt/suffering/etc?
We can also do some further investigation in the "After Gate" forums once we are done here, to continue breaking these down.
This brings so much happiness to all of us who worked with you. Thank you!One of the best effects is that almost every time I Look, a smile comes to my face. That has come to be my best indication that I'm Seeing!
I will now show your thread to the other guides, and see if there are any additional questions.
Be back shortly.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.
Re: Take two!
There are no more questions.
You will shortly receive a private message from another forum Admin with further instructions.
You will shortly receive a private message from another forum Admin with further instructions.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.
Re: Take two!
Thanks you. And I'm deeply grateful for your help. Your suggestions, kindness, and positivity allowed me to take the final step!
Best wishes,
Bob
Best wishes,
Bob
Re: Take two!
You are very welcome Bob! I'm glad it helped :)
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.
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