Take two!

[gondwana]

The sensation itself conveys no spatial location. There is just very strong conditioned knowledge that a particular sensation comes from a particular body part.

Great! This is all we were looking for here. Simple :)

So, circling back to your original “centralised feeling of a possible self”...

Bring up this feeling again.
Look at it freshly, in the present moment.
- Can it be seen that there is no “centralised” location, and that this location part is simply a thought?
- Is the sensation/feeling simply an impersonal body sensation + thought of a location?
- Is there any possibility of this being a “self”, ever, now or in the past, if it is just an impersonal sensation + thought?
- Do you see a “self” remaining anywhere else left to explore?

[Bobf]

Bring up this feeling again.
Look at it freshly, in the present moment.
- Can it be seen that there is no “centralised” location, and that this location part is simply a thought?
- Is the sensation/feeling simply an impersonal body sensation + thought of a location?
- Is there any possibility of this being a “self”, ever, now or in the past, if it is just an impersonal sensation + thought?
- Do you see a “self” remaining anywhere else left to explore?

This is the final step for me, and I want to make sure that I answer from what I See, as opposed to just giving the "right" answer. I just tried looking freshly, but would like to do it a bit more today, or even tomorrow.

Bob

[gondwana]

That’s great, no worries! :)

Just take your time, and let me know when something clear comes up.

[Bobf]

Bring up this feeling again.
Look at it freshly, in the present moment.
- Can it be seen that there is no “centralised” location, and that this location part is simply a thought?
- Is the sensation/feeling simply an impersonal body sensation + thought of a location?
- Is there any possibility of this being a “self”, ever, now or in the past, if it is just an impersonal sensation + thought?
- Do you see a “self” remaining anywhere else left to explore?

This exercise is sticky for me - I think its the last area where there is "holding on". I apologize in advance for the overly intellectual speech I'm about to make and from straying from actual experience.

Since most of the sense organs are part of the head, there are very strong conditioned thoughts that something inside the head is doing the seeing, hearing, etc. And since many thoughts are visual, there is the conditioning that they are being "seen" just like "external" objects. When I conjure up the "self feeling", it feels localized and internal. I know intellectually that its just a non-localized feeling and a thought, but there is clinging to the idea that this may be a self.

So I just tried an interesting exercise. I sat on a chair with my eyes closed and pressed one of my fingertips into the arms of the chair. I tried this because my finger is obviously quite a distance from my head. It was absolutely clear to me that there was nothing but a feeling arising and that there was no one feeling it.

So to summarize, Its very clear to me that everything is just arising - thoughts, perceptions etc., and that that's all there is. But I still get a bit stuck though with the exercise you gave me. When I try to summon up a "self", a feeling arises and the thought that its inside my head. But its clear to me that this feeling isn't controlling anything so it can't be a self.

I realize this is just a lot of obsessing and probably a last ditch effort to not let go completely!

Bob

[gondwana]

Its very clear to me that everything is just arising - thoughts, perceptions etc., and that that's all there is

When I try to summon up a "self", a feeling arises and the thought that its inside my head. But its clear to me that this feeling isn't controlling anything so it can't be a self.

It was absolutely clear to me that there was nothing but a feeling arising and that there was no one feeling it.

This seems crystal clear now!

How does it feel to be nobody?
How does it feel to have no story?

[Bobf]

This seems crystal clear now!

How does it feel to be nobody?
How does it feel to have no story?

First, a quick update. I've been looking at this "centralized feeling" business pretty intensely for the last few days. There is still the sense that the feeling is "localized" - that's strongly conditioned and hard to get rid of (except occasionally). But it is seen now that it doesn't really matter if it is localized or not - it is simply sensations accompanied by the "this is a self" thought. So I think I'm done with that!

To answer your question:
1. When I Look, I feel like a no self - there is just awareness.
2. A lot of the rest of the time, my life feels pretty much the same, BUT
3. The strong "seeking" drive that I've had for many years has diminished greatly. There's less of a desire to read books, to "accomplish" something spiritually, etc.

So overall, the answer to your questions is that it feels good - there is more of a sense of peace. As my former guide Kay used to say, after she Saw for the first time, it took almost a year of constant looking for this Seeing to really get incorporated into a more or less continuous Knowing.

So I think I may be done in terms of the obsessing. There is still a bit of residual stuff, and I'd like to make sure I don't backslide (although I'm not sure if that's even possible at this point).

Thank you!
Bob

[Bobf]

Hello,

The process has continued since yesterday. There is a sense that there has been a final breakthrough here. A feeling that I'm "done". By that I don't mean that the process won't continue to unfold, but a feeling that the seeking/struggle is over and that the rest will happen automatically.

Still some anxiety, but that's OK. A greater sense of peace and wholeness.

Bob

[gondwana]

It seems you are through the gate. Fantastic!

Take some time over the next few days to let things settle in. Just relax and enjoy. The hard questions are over!

You may of course continue looking at every little opportunity, to deepen the realisation.

Write in here whenever you wish during this time, to describe new experiences and new realisations. Feel free to rant and express what you find, in whatever way feels right! Treat it a bit like a journal.

[Bobf]

Write in here whenever you wish during this time, to describe new experiences and new realisations. Feel free to rant and express what you find, in whatever way feels right! Treat it a bit like a journal.

Will do. Aren't there final questions I'm supposed to answer?

Thanks again for all your support!
Bob

[gondwana]

Will do. Aren't there final questions I'm supposed to answer?

Thanks again for all your support!

You are most welcome, it was a pleasure! :)

Here are the final questions when you are ready for them. Writing out a fairly long answer to each of these can also help to clarify things.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Bobf]

Here are the final questions when you are ready for them. Writing out a fairly long answer to each of these can also help to clarify things.

Sorry for the delay - last week turned out to be pretty awful! I feel like I should work this out on my own, but a little support might be helpful. Here's what happened:

1. I discussed my breakthrough with my wife. I kind of knew that this was a mistake, because I was still digesting it and she tends to be very cynical about "spiritual" stiff (she's very active politically and primarily focused on that). In any case, after that conversation, a lot of doubting thoughts arose here.

2. I was extremely upset by something that happened at work. Nothing earth-shattering (it will pass), but I felt pretty bad afterwards. By the way, sorry for all the "I" references here, its just easier.

In any case, the combination of things shook me up and led to a lot of negative thoughts and painful feelings.

Here is the "answer" that has been arising here:
1. Several days ago, I was very clear that I had crashed the gate.
2. It was an enormous relief and was accompanied by expansive feelings of vividness, happiness, and peace.
3. Because of a lifetime of conditioning and because the gate-crashing just happened, its not surprising that a couple of upsetting experiences led to self-doubts. They will pass.
4. Just because I crashed the gate doesn't mean that events will sometimes upset me!

That's it, in a nutshell. If you have any other advice, that would be great. I am continuing to Look!

Bob

[Bobf]

Just noticed that I meant to say that even though the gate was crashed, upset feelings can still arise!

[gondwana]

Here is the "answer" that has been arising here:
1. Several days ago, I was very clear that I had crashed the gate.
2. It was an enormous relief and was accompanied by expansive feelings of vividness, happiness, and peace.
3. Because of a lifetime of conditioning and because the gate-crashing just happened, its not surprising that a couple of upsetting experiences led to self-doubts. They will pass.
4. Even though the gate was crashed, upset feelings can still arise!

Yes. The answer is all correct!

That's it, in a nutshell. If you have any other advice, that would be great. I am continuing to Look!

And the thing to do here is, each time this happens, look for or ask WHO is feeling “upset” (or feeling “whatever”).

Now that it has already been seen, every time you do that, this “WHO” question should immediately dissolve into nothing, along with the original upsetting emotion, because it has already been seen that there IS no one to be “upset”. It is seen as just a thought (i.e. empty).

The feeling “upset” is just a thought.
The assumption that “it” is happening to a self (“me”) is just a thought.

You can do this every time it happens and it should dissolve easily. If it does not, that is something to discuss with me for more pointing.

Over time, doing this again and again repeatedly, it will occur less and less often. It is just a process of embodying the realisation you already had, from here.

Try this for the next few days and let me know how it goes!

[Bobf]

Now that it has already been seen, every time you do that, this “WHO” question should immediately dissolve into nothing, along with the original upsetting emotion, because it has already been seen that there IS no one to be “upset”. It is seen as just a thought (i.e. empty).

When I do this, the upsetting emotion does dissolve or begin to dissolve. However, during the period of "being upset" (which is subsiding now), it tends to repeatedly come back.

This makes sense here. There is a lifetime of conditioning that "I am a self who can be hurt". I don't expect that conditioning to instantaneously go away now that I have seen. There is a great deal of neurotic armor and I don't expect those character traits to disappear overnight!

In any case, I'll get back to the final questions later this week.

Bob

[gondwana]

Great! Then it is working. This process is completely normal, it actually happens to everyone regardless how much conditioning was acquired.

This is just part of the normal process once you have gone through the gate.

Just keep at the looking as much as you can, and it dissolves over time :)

Look forward to your answers.