Seeking the end of Seeking

[Govinda]

Hi, being back.

This doesn't sound plausable. How can you hide something that isn't there?

Not possible. This is fantasy.

stories are not.

True. What about experiencing?

Experience appears to be real. Assuming that all experience is an image in the brain, experience is not real too. At least it can not be known if it is real or unreal or something else.

protection of what?

If it were obvious, then we wouldn't have a fear response.

fear protects me. me protects fear

While your on retreat, think about what fear actually is (for the organism)

Fear is to protect the organism from injuries and death.
In context of the self it seems to protect the illusion which is not possible we already noticed. Kind of paradoxical and confusing right now.

Hear from you when you get back. Have a good retreat...

Thanks

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Seb, did any 'shifts' occur while on retreat?

How can you hide something that isn't there?

Not possible.

Ok, good. So lets dispense (for the moment) with the notion of no-self. Let's concentrate on what is present.

Experience appears to be real.

Another one that is above our pay grade at the moment. The word "real".
For the sake of this enquiry, replace "real" with "actual".
Let's also confine our enquiry to the relative and leave ideas of the absolute aside for the moment.
So, from the perspective of the organism with the label Sebastian, does the concept of experience point to actual happenings?
Keep in mind that you not only receive stimulation from the (apparently) outside world via the 5 physical sense organs, but you also experience the happenings of thoughts. ..and interestingly, you respond to thought stimulation in the same way as you respond to input from the other 5 senses.
Using actual experience, can you discover what that first response is?

Fear is to protect the organism from injuries and death.
In context of the self it seems to protect the illusion

We will (most likely) discover the purpose of fear, but for the moment I want you to discover what it is, not what it does. How do you experience fear? Where is it? What does it feel like? What repetitive thoughts are associated with it?

with love

vince

[Govinda]

Huge amount of stress and fear happening here. Despair and overwhelm happening. Not being able to process mental things right now.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Seb,

Not being able to process mental things right now.

Great (sincerely) just keep bringing focus into the body. What sensations are present? Where are they? Are they changing?

Despair and overwhelm happening.

Can you identify the stories that lead to these feelings?

with compassion

vince

[Govinda]

Hi there, here happened some stress and suffering and relapses into addictive behavior. Also I spent longer times meeting the suffering sitting with it. LU approach did not resonate that time but I would like to continue now if possible. I have been in the zoom on sunday which was very helpful.

Not being able to process mental things right now.

Great (sincerely) just keep bringing focus into the body. What sensations are present? Where are they? Are they changing?

spent much time being present with the pain. Right now it is calm in the body and relaxed more or less.

Despair and overwhelm happening.

Can you identify the stories that lead to these feelings?

Guess the core stories are: "It/I should be different. I don`t want to feel this."
And the shame and guilt stories coming with the suffering. "I am wrong. I made mistakes. I should have acted differently. I am unworthy of joy, love, freedom."
And the core-core story of suffering: "I am the doer, separate from life and responsible and guilty for everything that happens to me".

Looking forward to read from you. Best Regards

[vinceschubert]

Hi Seb,

I have been in the zoom on sunday which was very helpful.

that's excellent to hear. Yes, I noticed you, but mostly those that have their camera turned off don't want active participation (my story) so I didn't bother you.

spent much time being present with the pain.

Noticed I said "sensations" and you said "pain".

Right now it is calm in the body and relaxed more or less.

Did the pain subside because the cause was removed or because it was diverted from or suppressed?

And the shame and guilt stories come with the suffering. "I am wrong. I made mistakes. I should have acted differently. I am unworthy of joy, love, freedom."

Let'as just imagine for a moment that all of these things are true. Could you live in a body with all of these things?
Continuing to imagine that they are accurate, are they all about the past?
Can any one of them be undone?

"I am the doer, separate from life

So, two questions:
1. Do you really think this?
2. Do you feel in this? (in the body)

with love

vince

[Govinda]

Hi Vince, I had some bodily issues that draw lots attention and created fear. Maybe protection mechanisms of the self.
Now I want to stick with the inquiry here while looking for for the subject or doer during the day regularly.

that's excellent to hear. Yes, I noticed you, but mostly those that have their camera turned off don't want active participation (my story) so I didn't bother you.

yes thanks, that was fine. I lay in bed and just listened to you guys.

Noticed I said "sensations" and you said "pain".

Apparently there is still the story of suffering Sebastian going on...

Did the pain subside because the cause was removed or because it was diverted from or suppressed?

The stress became less apparently. Not Sure if removed or suppressed. Maybe both and neither nor.

And the shame and guilt stories come with the suffering. "I am wrong. I made mistakes. I should have acted differently. I am unworthy of joy, love, freedom."

Let'as just imagine for a moment that all of these things are true. Could you live in a body with all of these things?

Not Sure if I understand the question right. With which things can I live in a body? Who is living with what in a body? Guess these are all stories. nothin true about it

Continuing to imagine that they are accurate, are they all about the past?

These stories are neither about past nor Future nor present I would say. They just appear without reason.

Can any one of them be undone?

No. They appear as they appear without control. From nowhere to nowhere. From timelessness to timelessness.

[Govinda]

Also met past girlfriend randomly which triggered huge emotional pain. It is like in a tragady movie. It appeared to be so painful but writing about it it is like two actors just playing their roles like on automatic. Tragady and comedy at the game time. Crazy

[Govinda]

Want to get the point now. Sitting in silence and Satsangs, burning in the "fire of truth" feels quite exhausting but maybe it is part of the process, apparently, who knows? Where is the subject? Cant find it? Where is the thinker? Cant find it. Where is the seeker? Cant find it.

Cant find no seeker, no subject, no thinker. It should be obvious. There is just this. This this this. This this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this
but still something seems to be missing. What is missing? Cant say. Some Kind of dissatisfaction. Is it real or is it just a thought? It is part of life, of wholeness maybe. Just this. Only this. Always this. Ever this. This what is.

[Govinda]

Also doing the investigation of Ramesh Balsekar regularly if there is a doer or just deeds. Did "I" chose this or did a sequence of thoughts and Impulses lead to certain actions?

Also doing "the work" investigation. Is this thought (absolutely) true?

On the other side letting emotions run through the organism as possible.

[vinceschubert]

Hey Seb,

doing the investigation of Ramesh Balsekar regularly if there is a doer or just deeds. Did "I" chose this or did a sequence of thoughts and Impulses lead to certain actions?

Ohu, ok. i would have thought that this was really clear for you?
Is there any doubt that the self is just a story?
i imagined that we were stuck in doubt (2nd fetter stuff)

Want to get the point now.

You won't get there with effort. Work and effort are diversions from what you are seeking.
You will realize (have an epiphany) when you are relaxed and probably doing a mundane task.

Sitting in silence and Satsangs, burning in the "fire of truth" feels quite exhausting but maybe it is part of the process,

Everything that you experience or have experienced is/was part of the process. It all led you to where you are now.

Tragady and comedy at the same time. Crazy

That's life.

Maybe protection mechanisms of the self.

The 'self' is a protection mechanism. So yes, it was a protection of the protection mechanism.

which triggered huge emotional pain.

Triggers will keep happening until there's nothing left. (if that ever happens)


with love

vince

[Govinda]

hi there

doing the investigation of Ramesh Balsekar regularly if there is a doer or just deeds. Did "I" chose this or did a sequence of thoughts and Impulses lead to certain actions?

Ohu, ok. i would have thought that this was really clear for you?

the belief that I am the doer is still believed most of the time as a unquestioned assumption.

Is there any doubt that the self is just a story?

if not investigated directly the assumption that there is a real self is believed.

i imagined that we were stuck in doubt (2nd fetter stuff)

what does that mean? thought it is all about the belief in thoughts/self here.

You won't get there with effort. Work and effort are diversions from what you are seeking.
You will realize (have an epiphany) when you are relaxed and probably doing a mundane task.

yes

Everything that you experience or have experienced is/was part of the process. It all led you to where you are now.

yes

The 'self' is a protection mechanism. So yes, it was a protection of the protection mechanism.

yes

Triggers will keep happening until there's nothing left. (if that ever happens)

yes


right now there is huge contraction in the body. thoughts wanting it to be different. the suffering is caused by the thought, this should be different, I should be different, I am wrong, I am guilty. assuming that thoughts are not real, is there a problem? not at all. without believing thoughts this is freedom.

[vinceschubert]

Hi,

the belief that I am the doer is still believed most of the time as a unquestioned assumption.

You say "most of the time". Tell me about the times when it is not believed.
When you look, do you find a self that is doing?
Do you appreciate the concept of dependent arising? (in Buddhism)
Do you believe that you make choices or decisions?
Do you think that you have control over anything?

if not investigated directly the assumption that there is a real self is believed.

Would you agree that if you're not investigating it then there are no thoughts about it?
Are beliefs expressed experienced as thoughts?
If there are no thoughts about it, how can it be believed?
So what is your actual experience of believing that there is a doer?

What does that mean?

Doubt is about more than thought. ..although it is a form of belief, so thoughts are involved. they are not the complete story.

Without believing thoughts this is freedom.

Yes. Does this mean that thoughts stop when we don't believe them? No.
If a cartoon is playing on the TV, would we at any time say to ourselves that we don't believe that it is real? Of course not. The thought wouldn't even arise about whether it was real or not.
Once we see our thoughts as a cartoon with no value except as entertainment...

with love

vince

[Govinda]

hi again,

the belief that I am the doer is still believed most of the time as a unquestioned assumption.

You say "most of the time". Tell me about the times when it is not believed.

When it is not believed, there is freedom. vastness, being

When you look, do you find a self that is doing?

no. I can not even find a seeker or knower or reader or answerer.

Do you appreciate the concept of dependent arising? (in Buddhism)

I don`t know this concept.

Do you believe that you make choices or decisions?

as a direct answer here arises no, there is no entity who decides; it all is a sequence of feelings, thoughts, impulses.
But most of the time there is the unquestioned assumption that I am the decider.

Do you think that you have control over anything?

as a direct answer I have to answer no, ,there is nobody to control anything; it all is on automatic, even apparent control.
But most of the time the assumption that I am the manager, controller, decider is unquestioned believed.

if not investigated directly the assumption that there is a real self is believed.

Would you agree that if you're not investigating it then there are no thoughts about it?

thoughts about what? there are no thoughts about being a separate self or not, it is just assumed on a unconscious level maybe. It just is a felt sense of being a separate self suggested with every thought that contains an "I".

Are beliefs expressed experienced as thoughts?

as a felt sense of thoughts and feelings I would say.

If there are no thoughts about it, how can it be believed?

I don`t know. Maybe it is not believed but assumed and experienced.

So what is your actual experience of believing that there is a doer?

blank. emptiness.

Without believing thoughts this is freedom.

Yes. Does this mean that thoughts stop when we don't believe them? No.

If a cartoon is playing on the TV, would we at any time say to ourselves that we don't believe that it is real? Of course not. The thought wouldn't even arise about whether it was real or not.
Once we see our thoughts as a cartoon with no value except as entertainment...

yes

[vinceschubert]

Hi Seb,

When it is not believed,

It's interesting that there is belief that turns off and on.

Do you appreciate the concept of dependent arising? (in Buddhism)

I don`t know this concept.

This means that everything, whether mental or physical, exists and occurs because of the presence of certain conditions. Everything is dependent on (an infinite number of) other things.

there is no entity who decides;

There's a big trap in this. Don't use it. (see below for why)

the assumption that I am the manager, controller, decider is unquestioned believed.

Ok, you said it. Loud and clear. "the assumption".
It's a logical conclusion. A thought. An unquestioned thought. Does not questioning it make it true?
Why would you believe this thought any more than another thought? (there is a reason - look for it.)

Maybe it is not believed but assumed

I counted the word "assumption" 6 times. wow!

with love

vince