Another guide please

[Armstrong]

When I read, "I want to keep looking at this for a while, it helps me realise there is only the illusion of control," I'm concerned that maybe you want to see reality a certain way.

If I told you, "I'm looking at the sky and trying to see it as blue," you might say, "could you please just look at the sky carefully and tell me what you see?"

Can you please try to set aside your expectations and preconceptions and just take a look?

[marka]

When I read, "I want to keep looking at this for a while, it helps me realise there is only the illusion of control," I'm concerned that maybe you want to see reality a certain way.
Yes, quite possibly, thanks for pointing this out - I had not realised.

Just take a look?
Well, it does seem like I have some control - like deciding what to write here for example.

[marka]

When I read, "I want to keep looking at this for a while, it helps me realise there is only the illusion of control," I'm concerned that maybe you want to see reality a certain way.

Yes, quite possibly, thanks for pointing this out - I had not realised.

Just take a look?
Well, it does seem like I have some control - like deciding what to write here for example.[/quote]

[marka]

When I read, "I want to keep looking at this for a while, it helps me realise there is only the illusion of control," I'm concerned that maybe you want to see reality a certain way.

Yes, quite possibly, thanks for pointing this out - I had not realised.

Just take a look?
Well, it does seem like I have some control - like deciding what to write here for example.

[marka]

When I read, "I want to keep looking at this for a while, it helps me realise there is only the illusion of control," I'm concerned that maybe you want to see reality a certain way.

Yes, quite possibly, thanks for pointing this out - I had not realised.

Just take a look?
Well, it does seem like I have some control - like deciding what to write here for example.[/quote]

[marka]

oops, sorry for the repeating message!

[Armstrong]

Can you please carefully describe what it is like to answer a question here in terms of direct experience?

That is, in terms of thoughts, physical experience, etc?

[marka]

thoughts:'why are you asking me this?'
physical: pressure on left knee, material pushing against thigh, pressure on bottom, sensation on fingertips as type.
sight: screen, letters appearing, eyes flicking down to keys as type.
sound: (nothing aware of until focus specifically) sound of traffic driving by outside.
thoughts: 'why take it off topic again?'
feelings: frustration.
thoughts: 'I imagine its because I haven't quite focused in direct experience terms.'
thoughts: 'was wanting to keep focus on what in control of.'
thoughts: 'I imagine its frustrating being a guide, asking a question, having them answer something/some way else.'
feelings: amusement.
physical: pressure of heel on leg as sit crossed legged. moving legs, pressure on bottom, strain in back, position of stomach as sit straighter.

[Armstrong]

Thanks. You explained your direct experience with clarity, which helps.

Please read your answer above and try to recall that experience. There's questions in this message, so if you pay attention as you answer them, the experience may be a bit similar - the task is similar.

Do you - as the one that reads this now - actually appear in any of that experience? Do you exist the way the colors, sounds, thoughts and physical sensations do? Do you see yourself, hear yourself, etc?

Do you - the one that reads this now - control the thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, desires, etc that you experience now? Can you find anything that you actually control, right now? When I read your answer, I don't see you controlling things.

If I ask you to pick a movie, do you control what answer pops into your head? Do you - as the thing experiencing things - control the hands as they type out an answer?


Let's look at those thoughts:

thoughts: 'I imagine its because I haven't quite focused in direct experience terms.'
thoughts: 'was wanting to keep focus on what in control of.'
thoughts: 'I imagine its frustrating being a guide, asking a question, having them answer something/some way else.'

Can you find the author/creator of the thoughts?

IMPORTANT: Who is listening to the thoughts? Is it the "I" referred to in the thoughts? How do you know that?

In "I imagine ..." who is this "I"? Can you see it, hear it, etc?

Is it the thing commenting on your experience that is the "I"? If you are sitting there imagining something (eg imagine a pink elephant) why not just silently imagine the pink elephant? Do you really need a thought like, "wow, I'm really imagining this pink elephant like a champ!"


Some homework for the week: I figure you'll be driving next week when you work. You'll probably have thoughts commenting on other peoples' driving and other behavior. Eg, "he shouldn't do that" or "that was nice of him".

Please pay attention to the following: where is the commentary coming from? Do you create it? Who is listening to the commentary? If you are the one that does the thinking, can you stop it?

[marka]

Do you - as the one that reads this now - actually appear in any of that experience? Do you exist the way the colors, sounds, thoughts and physical sensations do? Do you see yourself, hear yourself, etc?

No. The one that reads this now does not exist in the way the colours, sounds, sensations etc do.

Do you - the one that reads this now - control the thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, desires, etc that you experience now? Can you find anything that you actually control, right now? When I read your answer, I don't see you controlling things.

No. This exercise clearly demonstrates that - there is no 'me' controlling things in that answer and it is much the same now.
(there is, though, a thought that persists - wants to take ownership, like its almost saying 'but I do exist, somewhere' ...... it's like the thought says 'it can't be that simple'. I say 'thought' because I have tried to locate what it is and can't, so it must be thoughts)

If I ask you to pick a movie, do you control what answer pops into your head? Do you - as the thing experiencing things - control the hands as they type out an answer?

1st one, no, it just comes.
2nd one, there is the appearance of control (that is, thought wants to 'get clever' and say 'because I could change what i type, so there is control) but I think its just the same as the movie - the words are just typed as they come out in thoughts, spoken words in head - they just appear, no control.

Let's look at those thoughts:

thoughts: 'I imagine its because I haven't quite focused in direct experience terms.'
thoughts: 'was wanting to keep focus on what in control of.'
thoughts: 'I imagine its frustrating being a guide, asking a question, having them answer something/some way else.'

Can you find the author/creator of the thoughts?

No. They just appeared. Immediately, quickly, instantly. If there is an author I cannot find it.

IMPORTANT: Who is listening to the thoughts? Is it the "I" referred to in the thoughts? How do you know that?

The initial answer - I think it is the I referred to in the thoughts ......... how do I know that - I DO NOT! It is simply something I have assumed, all my life!

In "I imagine ..." who is this "I"? Can you see it, hear it, etc?

I don't know who this 'I' is - it is the I referred to above in the thoughts - but I've just said I don't know how I know that. Its the same - I don't know who this is, if this 'I' even exists, except in my head, in thoughts, and in all that is assumed and not looked at.

Thank you for all this Armstrong. I will do the homework also this week although please note - I have now given up the driving job; it was killing me and making me angry!
That said, I can do the homework anyway - there will definitely be thoughts commenting on other people!

[Armstrong]

Thanks.

I would encourage you to pay attention to the thoughts as much as possible. If you live alone, you might try uttering them as you have them, so that you can pay attention to them.

I'm curious to hear what you notice.

[marka]

will report later

[marka]

I'm curious to hear what you notice.

Initially, would like to go back:

IMPORTANT: Who is listening to the thoughts? Is it the "I" referred to in the thoughts? How do you know that?

There are thoughts. And there is listening to the 'chatter' in head, the speaking to 'self', the commentary.
So, there is thought and there is listening to thought.
That is all.
Most of the time the thought and listening go unchallenged, automatic as it were, which means it is assumed there is an 'I' doing the thinking, the talking to 'self', the listening .....
only, since there has been focus on the listening, there is no one really present - it is simply this:
there is thought occurring, it happens to be auditory.

That's what I've noticed so far.

[Armstrong]

You write "there is thought and listening to thought."
How are those two things different?

Also, when you try to answer this question, by looking and paying attention, do you identify a "you", controlling attention?

Do you see how the "I" in the thoughts means different things depending on the thought and the context (everything else that is going on)? Can you provide a few examples?

[marka]

You write "there is thought and listening to thought."
How are those two things different?

I then said:
there is thought occurring, it happens to be auditory.
(i.e. I had worked it through and ended up there.)

However, that idea of thoughts and listening to them, who is doing the listening ..... I'm not sure it is the "I" referred to in the thoughts .... but no closer to giving a definitive answer here - I don't think there is one.
In that sense I think it is the same - that is, when I really try to focus on 'who' or 'what' is doing the listening, I have no idea! Except that there is listening, or is it hearing, occurring.

It is back to this: there is thoughts occurring, they happen to be auditory.

On the subject of saying my thoughts out loud, which I've done a bit of, they seem to be a stream of non -sense. Random, completely random at times. On going comments, ongoing stories. That's all.