Seeking the end of Seeking

[Govinda]

Hi there, have been on a Satsang Weekend and had no time to answer. will let you know before next time.

We simply need to see that the illusion is not anything actual. That way we stop responding to the story in a compulsive way.

That is the freedom I guess.

Making decisions soaked attention very deep into story today.

Ok, that's fine. That's not the issue. The ONLY thing that is relevant is DID YOU NOTICE IT, and did you laugh when you saw it had happened? Don't gloss over these words. Let them sink in. - What is important here?

yes I did notice it and Think I did laugh. Got an eye on it.
Important is to not taking thoughts serious. Which means nothing is important in fact.

Rephrase this to say that the illusion was strong..

Thoughts were believed very much with huge underlying emotional charge.

and as good as all this sounds, it's just a story.

maybe I will read the story some more times.

Ok, go through them and list the areas where there is doubt and we'll concentrate on them.

I will as soon as I got some more time to process the questions.

[Govinda]

Rephrase this to say that the illusion was strong..

Thoughts were believed very much with huge underlying emotional charge.

In fact Illusion can neither be strong nor weak. Illusion does not even exist. Feelings can be strong or weak apparently. Can the believe in thoughts be strong or weak? If the believe in thoughts is also a thought this can not be the case. So the believe in thoughts is more a feeling than a thought. What is the glue that seems to make the believe in thoughts strong or weak?


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1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No there is no separate self, but it still often appears as if there is a separate entity.

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

The Illusion of being a separate self came into being by conditioning of thoughts given by the environment. The thoughts I am a separate self, doing, deciding, acting, thinking, feeling etc. from there on has been a unquestioned assumption which seems to be believed by everybody around too.
When it is clear that there is no separate self there is freedom and lightness, effortlessness, peace. but these are mostly just moments until thoughts are believed again claiming to be a separate self being in charge of life.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Feels light, relaxed to see that there is no separate self.
Thoughts and self are not so much believed any more. Times where attention is soaked in by thoughts became less.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

There were many points when I "got it" and equally many points when I "lost it". Epiphany happened when inquiring this question

is it possible to see that there is no self, whilst still having a belief that there is one?

and this

where do you end and where does the world begin? L.U.

and this

tell me what needs to happen for you to be awake?

this

As this seeing is happening, ask yourself can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Is there only seeing?

for example. First quote was the most profound epiphany I would say.

Epiphanies also come and go apparently.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

Decision, intention, free will, choice, control are thought content. Thoughts happen by themselves automatically without an owner or creator.

What makes things happen?

Life apparently or nothing. Actually I don`t know.

How does it work?

I have no idea. Maybe it doesn`t work. It is just like a movie playing on the thought screen.

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

I have no idea. Decisions, free will etc. are thought content. they do not even exist.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

There is nobody being responsible. Responsibility also is just a story, not existent. Subject-Object fiction of the mind.

6) Anything to add?

Illusion of self still appears to be real most of the time while understanding and sometimes seeing that it is not real.

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Sebastian,

In fact, Illusion can neither be strong nor weak. Illusion does not even exist. Feelings can be strong or weak apparently. Can the belief in thoughts be strong or weak? If the belief in thoughts is also a thought this can not be the case. So the belief in thoughts is more a feeling than a thought

Ok, let's take a quantum leap in perspective here.
This whole investigation is NOT about trying to figure out what is real.
In fact, any attempt to say what it is will inevitably be a story without substance.
One such story might be that we are working towards not knowing anything, and feeling at peace with that. That should lead to an experience of equanimity.
Everything else is like the thorn we use to take out the thorn. It is a temporary tool to move us in the direction that we wish to go. So, yes, illusion has no reality, neither does its opposite. In fact, nothing exists, nor doesn't exist. Existence itself is just an idea.
This leads us to another story. The idea that our experience is real. But of course, nothing can be measured. Nothing can be externalised. Yet it seems so real to us.
There's a kind of irony in this examination. It is that the more we focus on detail further down we get, the more ephemeral it becomes. At a really deep level everything disappears. It's like we reside in the space between neutrons and protons.

No there is no separate self, but it still often appears as if there is a separate entity.

When that appears does the separate shelf exist as anything more than a description of what is happening?
That is, if we investigate what the description points to, do we come up with anything more than sensations and thoughts?

but these are mostly just moments until thoughts are believed again claiming to be a separate self being in charge of life.

Can you see the emphasis that you give it here?
Will the time come when the claiming of a separate self is just moments and relief from that is the predominant feature?

Times where attention is soaked in by thoughts become less.

Instead of seeing a cessation of thoughts as a final goal, might it be a 'better' outcome that just less weight is given to them?

Actually I don`t know.

Perfect answer.

Illusion of self still appears to be real most of the time while understanding and sometimes seeing that it is not real

Try this: use the perspective of nothing being real or unreal, and from that perspective, describe what is actually happening when the illusion of Self appears to be real.

with love

vince

[Govinda]

At a really deep level everything disappears. It's like we reside in the space between neutrons and protons.

That sounds amazing. I need this.

No there is no separate self, but it still often appears as if there is a separate entity.

When that appears does the separate shelf exist as anything more than a description of what is happening?

The separate self is thought content including feelings and sensations.

That is, if we investigate what the description points to, do we come up with anything more than sensations and thoughts?

no. just sensations and thoughts.

but these are mostly just moments until thoughts are believed again claiming to be a separate self being in charge of life.

Can you see the emphasis that you give it here?

I think so. There happens a more or less subtle fight against the separate self apparently and an overemphasis.

Will the time come when the claiming of a separate self is just moments and relief from that is the predominant feature?

I hope so. Working on it. Your word in god´s ear.

Instead of seeing a cessation of thoughts as a final goal, might it be a 'better' outcome that just less weight is given to them?

yes of course. That is the direction.

Illusion of self still appears to be real most of the time while understanding and sometimes seeing that it is not real

Try this: use the perspective of nothing being real or unreal, and from that perspective, describe what is actually happening when the illusion of Self appears to be real.

From the perspective of nothing being real or unreal the illusion of self can not appear real of course. Nothing happens then.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sebastian,

That sounds amazing. I need this.

Can you get your mind around that you already have this, but are too distracted to see it? (although I think that you have had glimpses of it)

The separate self is thought content including feelings and sensations.

Would it be more accurate to say that the separate self is the description/explanation overlayed on thoughts/feelings/sensations?

There happens a more or less subtle fight against the separate self

This makes the illusion stronger. i know that it might seem paradoxical but can you see that to accept the illusion when it happens, to accept it without opinion, will weaken it quicker and easier than resisting it?
To help with this, consider the fact that by the time you become aware of the arising of anything, it is already in the past, so what is the point of wanting it to be different? It's already done. Finished.

with love

vince

[Govinda]

Can you get your mind around that you already have this, but are too distracted to see it? (although I think that you have had glimpses of it)

Makes sense, yes.

Would it be more accurate to say that the separate self is the description/explanation overlayed on thoughts/feelings/sensations?

Yes, like an additional program on top of feelings and thoughts.

This makes the illusion stronger. i know that it might seem paradoxical but can you see that to accept the illusion when it happens, to accept it without opinion, will weaken it quicker and easier than resisting it?

Makes total sense.

To help with this, consider the fact that by the time you become aware of the arising of anything, it is already in the past, so what is the point of wanting it to be different? It's already done. Finished.

Yes, totally logical. Wanting anything what is or was to be different is madness.

[Govinda]

Grief and regret appearing quite real here right now. Looking clearly they seem to evolve around an imagined self while hiding it apparently.
Seeing that the center behind does not exist makes the bubble burst.

Is it possible that all the drama and suffering is created around an imagined non existent self while apparently hiding the too obvious fiction?
Is it possible that the guilty, the manager, the decider, the actor, the responsible, the owner, the thinker, the feeler, the seeker, the sufferer, the griefer, and so on are just empty delusions? Assumed entities without any reality at all? God damit, what a hilarious joke. No subject there? All empty? Oh damit. Can't believe it. Need to sleep now. See what happens next.

[Govinda]

See what happens next.

Guess that was just a quick insight. Regret appears very real again but when I write here it immediately seems to lose reality.

[Govinda]

Seems to change something to write here in the forum. Regret appears unreal again.

[Govinda]

Also the regreter

[Govinda]

Decision needs to be made, causing a lot of fear and stress apparently.
Seeing that there is nobody who ever could make a decision. Seeing that there is nobody in control. Me is empty.

[vinceschubert]

Grief and regret appearing quite real here right now.

Well, something is real. There's no denying that. ..but what is it that is actual? On the surface grief and regret seem real, but is we examine it we quickly see that grief and regret are concepts used to communicate what is going on.
What is actually happening is that there are unpleasant sensations and then there are stories attached that attempt to give meaning to the sensations. Now here's the tricky bit. The stories not only attempt to explain/describe meaning of the sensations, but they are an attempt to change them. To dissociate from them.
They are stories about blame and they will likely point away from yourself.
Of course, there are many variations of this.

Looking clearly they seem to evolve around an imagined self while hiding it apparently

I see the creation of a self as armour, as protection.

Is it possible that all the drama and suffering is created around an imagined non existent self while apparently hiding the too obvious fiction?

I think much more than possible.
OK, if you see that there is no actual separate self, then it is time to give the stories about a self their rightful place.
We don't need (for the moment) to talk about a non existent self. We know that it is an illusion that will appear as a result of habit. (until it doesn't)
Those stories, when believed, are powerful. We respond to them as if they are true. As we see through them, they lose power.

Is it possible that the guilty, the manager, the decider, the actor, the responsible, the owner, the thinker, the feeler, the seeker, the sufferer, the griefer, and so on are just empty delusions?

They're stories that have been believed and responded to as if they were actual. Delusions? yes.
As we see through them the delusions become illusions. ..and seen to be illusory even as they occur.

Seems to change something to write here in the forum. Regret appears unreal again.

Yes. The shift in perspective reveals...

with love

vince

[Govinda]

They are stories about blame and they will likely point away from yourself.

yes of course. pointing away from sensations and hiding the self apparently.

Well, something is real. There's no denying that. ..but what is it that is actual?

stories are not.

I see the creation of a self as armour, as protection.

protection of what? fear protects me. me protects fear. closed loop apparently, isn`t it?

Those stories, when believed, are powerful. We respond to them as if they are true. As we see through them, they lose power.

couldn`t sleep this night and stories going wild again creating fear and worries. Writing this seems to reveal fictional character of thoughts. Self seems clearly empty. Thoughts are empty.

[Govinda]

being on retreat next one or two weeks.

[vinceschubert]

hiding the self apparently.

This doesn't sound plausable. How can you hide something that isn't there?

stories are not.

True. What about experiencing?

protection of what?

If it were obvious, then we wouldn't have a fear response.

fear protects me. me protects fear

While your on retreat, think about what fear actually is (for the organism)
Hear from you when you get back. Have a good retreat...

with love

vince