Stream Entry

[Alless]

Mariano, you are seeing thoughts so much clearer it seems and this is very different to some time back. This in itself is critical to this exploration. Good work !

Basically I need to shut up.

I hear what you say and it does seem like that.That is a very big ask ! And in fact this is a form of "I don't want this" This is not about getting rid of thoughts. Is simply seeing when we are being hypnotized by them rather than experiencing our senses directly. And watching any narrative that comes up be heard without believing it.

I just need to silently observe. I hope I’m not “censoring” my own thoughts with this.

Yes just silently observing what is going on is the key. And in such a subtle way there is censoring going on. Feeling the need to "shut up" is censorship in this context !

It’s just… I have the urge to “comment” and then I STOP,

Great ! Continue to "catch" your self commenting. Now this is were it can get tricky. Just LOOK and tell me.
When you STOP are you not telling yourself to stop and is that not just another thought?



Is what you are fighting against just mental chatter that somehow you believe is true?



And do this. rather than just dismiss them really LOOK at those thoughts - or at least a few of them.
What are they really saying?



Is there any substance to them at all?




Now take this a step further.

As you look at this array of thoughts is there any "me" doing any of this, is there any entity that is at the center of this?




Or is this "spinning out" of thought simply giving the impression and creating a "ghost" that seems to be "me"?





With love



Alan

[Nicholas]

Alan! Didn't forget about you/this
give me a few more days please.

love

[Alless]

Take the time you need Mariano !! 😊😊😊

[Nicholas]

When you STOP are you not telling yourself to stop and is that not just another thought?

If I say to myself “that’s a thought” with the intention to stop… yes that’s another thought.
if I just stop, I think there’s a mechanism I’m activating and that could be considered “thought” too.

Is what you are fighting against just mental chatter that somehow you believe is true?

Yeah, the problem is how to disengage from thoughts

And do this. rather than just dismiss them really LOOK at those thoughts - or at least a few of them.
What are they really saying?

There’s only 3 types of thought: there’s music, there’s monologue (that can go in a loop), and then there are some recurring thoughts about someone I met.

Is there any substance to them at all?

well, they do have a weight and generate emotions.

As you look at this array of thoughts is there any "me" doing any of this, is there any entity that is at the center of this?

there’s some kind of mechanism running in the mind in the form of tension that could be called a “me” and is the one that’s observing and invoking some monologue.

Or is this "spinning out" of thought simply giving the impression and creating a "ghost" that seems to be "me"?

I understand what you are saying but haven’t managed to look at it clearly yet

Apparently what works for me is just labeling everything “this is a thought”, and then intensely placing my attention on the sounds, because that helps “separate” from thoughts a little bit.

Couple of problems I have

+ sometimes I just don’t have “it” and doesn’t matter how long I try, I get lost in thought A LOT and can’t focus on sounds
+ doing this seems to be too taxing, don’t know why, don’t know what I’m fighting
+ I’m under the impression that this is not about the thoughts. It's the action/energy/impulse/something behind the thought.
+ It’s SO hard to step out of the thought realm, but when I achieve it (2-3 seconds per hour of practice, let’s say), it seems that I start to experience some kind of decoupling and the body seems to move alone and the mind too. Which makes me think:
+ I guess this process will be gradual in my case, there won’t be a “OH, now I’m liberated” but more of a slow liberation
+ Seems to be the kind of stuff where you just push push push push push until it “clicks”, right?

[Alless]

Some really good investigating here Nicholas.

I won't respond to your points in order necessarily.

+ I guess this process will be gradual in my case, there won’t be a “OH, now I’m liberated” but more of a slow liberation

You raise something here that is important. We never know how this will unfold. One thing is sure it will occur in a way that we can never predict. We'll never be able to predict whether it will be fast or slow or how the recognition will come. There was a young man by the name of Jerry realized that something was very different about the way he was experiencing things. He didn't have an “OH, now I’m liberated” event but the realization dawned on him one day that the thing that had changed was that he didn't view experience through referencing to a "me" It was then that when he looked he saw clearly there was no separate entity called "me". So yes it can happen "slowly" that way. And then again in any moment something can "pop." Dropping all expectations about how it might come about is the wise approach here - just as best you can.

+ Seems to be the kind of stuff where you just push push push push push until it “clicks”, right?

Relaxed attention with unswerving commitment without pushing is what is called for here. This is the paradox. Pushing is not necessarily helpful but unswerving attention is. Be gentle with yourself here. Doing this for big chunks of time can actually be counter "productive" Being zealous for this in regular short bursts can be the way to go often. Relaxing your attention can work wonders. Being as consistent as you can catching thoughts is the key. But keeping a soft openness seems to be very helpful.

Yeah, the problem is how to disengage from thoughts

Yes, that indeed SEEMS to be the issue. However trying to disengage from thoughts actually gives them more power. Why is this? Because in trying to get rid of them we are actually attributing to them a power which they do not actually have. So what to do? You're onto it when you say

Apparently what works for me is just labeling everything “this is a thought”,

Continue doing this. Remember its just not doing this that is actually what we are after per say but its doing this and recognizing when for some reason we get carried away with a thought BEFORE we've had time to recognize it is "just a thought" is the phenomenon we are looking to spot

Recognizing that split second when we get carried away with thought is what we are after. When you experience being carried away by thoughts simply acknowledge that it has happened and come back to watch for the next one. Any suggestion of failing when this happens just adds to frustration and adds pressure.

Watch as closely as you can HOW one thought simply passes by and then HOW it is that you actually "latch" onto a thought.

Could it be that its simply that you find yourself believing the thought BEFORE you actually recognize that what you are believing is just a thought? (Let me know if this question is not clear)





And where in all of this do you find a separate entity which we can label "me"




With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Hello Alan, still working on this, not as much as I would like, life got in the way these days. I guess I will be more focused once this year ends!

Could it be that its simply that you find yourself believing the thought BEFORE you actually recognize that what you are believing is just a thought? (Let me know if this question is not clear)

This is why I talk about "detaching" from thoughts. when "detached" they really look like "sounds" and nothing else, I don't get absorbed in them. But the thought I believe most is the one that starts with "I"

And where in all of this do you find a separate entity which we can label "me"

It seems to exist in the "belief", in the "absorption" of thoughts. But even when detached a bit from them, there still some kind of a... process going on all the time, something running. I have trouble explaining this, might need more time to work on it

[Alless]

Good to hear Mariano

This is why I talk about "detaching" from thoughts. when "detached" they really look like "sounds" and nothing else, I don't get absorbed in them. But the thought I believe most is the one that starts with "I"

Now as you LOOK and FEEL into these questions what do you find?
So what is different about the "I" thought compared to any other thought?




Does it have inherent power in and of itself that other thoughts do not have?




Is this thought "I" actually what you are or is it just a thought/word/concept/symbol/an imagined idea/an abstraction ABOUT what you truly are?




When you think the thought "apple" is that thought actually an apple?




Is there any inherent apple qualities in the thought "apple?"




Does the thought "apple" even start to approach any attribute that an actual apple has?




So now LOOK at the thought "I" in the same way
When you think the thought "I" is that thought actually what you are?




Is there any inherent "I" qualities in the thought "I ?"




Does the thought "I" even start to approach any attribute that is actually what you are?




With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Sorry for the delay, complicated days. Will free up as soon as this year ends.

(happy holidays Alan!!!)

Now as you LOOK and FEEL into these questions what do you find?
So what is different about the "I" thought compared to any other thought?

other than the “weight” attached, no difference from other thoughts.

Does it have inherent power in and of itself that other thoughts do not have?

it’s not the thought that has the power, it’s “something else” behind the thought, some mechanism I’m trying to unravel. How? just... paying attention.

Is this thought "I" actually what you are or is it just a thought/word/concept/symbol/an imagined idea/an abstraction ABOUT what you truly are?

it’s just a concept, I believe that right know I identify with the “mechanism” behind the concept. Or at least, I feel I am “that”.

When you think the thought "apple" is that thought actually an apple?

no

Is there any inherent apple qualities in the thought "apple?"

no

Does the thought "apple" even start to approach any attribute that an actual apple has?

no

So now LOOK at the thought "I" in the same way
When you think the thought "I" is that thought actually what you are?

it points to something, and that something is “reacting” with that thought. It’s so nebulous!

Is there any inherent "I" qualities in the thought "I ?"

not really

Does the thought "I" even start to approach any attribute that is actually what you are?

no

[Alless]

Hello Mariano,

And "happy holidays" to you too !!

other than the “weight” attached, no difference from other thoughts.

it’s “something else” behind the thought, some mechanism I’m trying to unravel.

If you no longer attached the label "weight" or the label "mechanism" to it, what happens?




So you are perceiving/ believing this "weight" or "mechanism" is you?





Are you this "weight" or "mechanism" or are you experiencing it?





Where are you as you experience this "weight" or "mechanism"?





With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

If you no longer attached the label "weight" or the label "mechanism" to it, what happens?

nothing

So you are perceiving/ believing this "weight" or "mechanism" is you?

yes

Are you this "weight" or "mechanism" or are you experiencing it?

I don't know what I am

Where are you as you experience this "weight" or "mechanism"?

Don't know how to answer this without using mind

...

Oh Alan, I feel so frustrated. Doesn't matter which "method" I use to investigate this reality, I feel I'm getting nowhere and my rapidly develops a defensive mechanism. I try to label thoughts "that's a thought", in a couple minutes I end up getting distracted over and over and lose all concentration, and get tired. I have to wait an entire day to recover.
I focus on sounds/vision, same thing happens.

I ask questions... your questions or just "what am I". Never an answer, nothing happens. It's like my own question doesn't have a real intention, a real weight. Like I couldn't care less about this. So contradictory.

My mind just doesn't want to get liberated, too many stubborness.

Probably my approach is wrong. I just want to do something and see some kind of progress, I feel like I'm doing something completely blind but not only that, my mind just refuses to collaborate or puts all of these defensive mechanisms to tire me and make me abandon the search.

What am I doing wrong?

[Alless]

oh Mariano I know what you mean by frustration.

It can be terribly frustrating. And the harder you try the more frustrating it can become.

I feel a real intensity from you born of the fact that you so badly want to do this. The paradox is that can actually make it more difficult.

What needs to be seen typically shows itself when we are not trying. It just happens.

We'll try and let some of this intensity drop. Relaxed alertness is the way.

So see what happens with this.

Watch your breathing. Just watch it. Just for a few breaths.

Don't try to slow it down or alter it in any way. Notice the natural rhythm.

As you do this you will find your mind wandering. Thoughts will arise - plans, worries, memories, am I doing this right kind of questions - this is normal. Don't fight them and don't judge yourself for having them. Instead gently redirect your focus back to your breath. Feel your breath coming in through the nostrils and down deep into your belly. Try your best just to see your thoughts as clouds drifting across the sky. You don't need to chase them or push them away. Just let them come and go while you're breath remains steady and constant.


Begin to notice if your breath changes at all or reflects your state of mind - is it shallow and quick or deep and steady?

Now take it a step further

...... without forcing it, let your rate of breathing slow down by inhaling by deeply through your nose for a count of four. Hold it for a moment and then exhale slowly through your mouth for a count of six. Feel your body relax with each exhale.

And with each exhale just let all the tension in your body drop.

Do this a few times and on each exhale just let the tension drain form your body. Feel it draining down the arms and out the tip of your fingers. Down the legs and out through the toes.

Notice where the tension is as you exhale and notice it draining out of its own accord as you let each breath exhale.

Try your best not to make a chore of it. Just let your attention soften and just thoroughly enjoy the release of the tension in your body. Let everything soften.

Do this for a few moments a few times a day. That's all.

This simple practice not only can calm your nervous system but can also anchor you firmly in the present moment where silence can naturally arise.

Let me know how that goes and we'll take it from there.




With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Hello Alan...
Tried your breathing/relaxation exercise a couple of times. It's not really different from the "resonance breathing" I've been doing for 6 months without any kind of result or relaxation on my part.

Still, I tried yours to be sure, but no avail.

I never managed to relax, unless it's medication (never again) or last time I went camping.

HOWEVER, it's not all bad news.

The last couple days been doing this: 5 sessions of meditation, of only FIVE minutes each.

Three of them dedicated to "this is a thought"
Two of them dedicated to focusing on vision & sound, trying to immerse myself "there".

And the truth is, I think it's "working". In the sense of: I don't feel I'm straining myself, or stressed, or fatigued or any of that.
It is doable.

So my plan is simple, keep doing this and add only 1 minute per week.

Do I notice something while doing this? I think it's too soon to tell, but sometimes I notice I can "focus" better when I close my eyes and focus on the darkness. And when doing the sight/sound I felt some kind of... "something" there that allowed me to focus better.

It's all too abstract and it's too soon to measure anything, so I'll keep working on this.

[Alless]

HOWEVER, it's not all bad news.

That is good news indeed Mariano 😊😊😊

What I'm feeling here is that Inner wisdom is shining a light on something to take heed to.

Was there any sense of a "me" deciding to do this? Or did it just arise?

So my plan is simple,

Beautiful !!! Simplicity is the key.


Will love to hear about your experience just when you're ready


With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Dear Alan, have to stop again!
I've been having a nasty insomnia breakout that doesn't recede. The truth is that I had this problem for 4-5 years already and I think it's time to fix it for good.

Right now I'm sleeping 4-5hs per day and it's not enough for my mind to function well, I just don't have any mental energy for this discovery or anything (I'm barely working or doing stuff during the day, it is THAT bad).

If you have any exercise or advice I will take it, meanwhile I think it's better I work on sleeping good enough so I can continue with this work.

I'm particularly sensitive to lack of sleep, sadly.

As soon as I have this under control (I guess 2-3 months from here) we will continue with work, hoping with a fresh perspective.

Thanks and I salute you...

[Alless]

I completely understand Mariano,

You ask what I might suggest. What comes to mind is to simply stop for a few seconds as often as you remember during the day. No expectations, no ideas about how to do it, no pressure to do it "right." Just stop and feel the silence even for a second or two. Often you may feel "Oh It didn't happen that time" Take no notice of that or similar thoughts. Just do the best you can.

Another way to say it is to just rest for a few moments as often as you remember. Taste that rest as you simply let the mind be unfocused and unattended even for a few moments

This in itself has a deep effect. Feel whatever is felt in the silence as you open to feel the stillness itself.

Just see how that goes.

Also it can be helpful when going to sleep to let your attention drop into the body somewhere - say the heart or the belly or the big toe even !! Taking attention away from the above the shoulders( the head) can often be very helpful. Just rest your attention somewhere in the body and feel what its like to rest there.

And when you're ready to come back I'll here my Friend.

With much love


Alan