Requesting a guide.

[IainB]

Jon

I also wish to be honest and say that separation is encountered as fundamental here, as opposed to non-separation being fundamental.

In each moment an ever shifting environment is encountered alongside a being who goes through a seeming cycle of phases of contentment and discontent. It is intuited that there are 'others out there' and it is only possible for me to share a second-hand and symbolic representation of what is like to me. At times, this leads to a pervasive sense of isolation.

In the past I reasoned that 'what is' is so expansive as to allow for both a personalised experience here, and not preclude experiences taking place elsewhere also. This seemed to help avoid a solipsistic conclusion that there is 'just me'.

thanks

[JonathanR]

What you’ve told me is honest and really helpful. It’s by far better to just admit this than to hold to ideas about no duality. That’s to say it’s very useful to just say no, that separation is experienced and that is isn’t clear that there’s no separation.

okay. We can try some things that potentially cut through reasoning and which may yet reveal no separation.

Find a cup. Any cup will do but it’s helpful if it has one colour. I’m currently drinking tea from a white cup, so I’ll refer to that. Place your cup in front of you a foot or two away, so it’s visible.


Notice the whiteness (colour). Now, the rest of this is laughably simple. There’s experience of whiteness, yes?


Is the sensation I’m calling “whiteness” separate from the experience of it?


We are not talking about anything other than whiteness. Is whiteness separate from the experience of it?


Love

Jon

[IainB]

Jon

that’s...the point, seen as such, as a story about someone, there’s no entity to improve

I realised in a session this week that the Iain persona is both shaped in response to trauma, and a mechanism to manage in the moment the underlying layers of rage and sorrow etc (so underlying sensations/emotions be encountered as proxy thought stories because it is taboo to rage or cry or wail about the deepest core pain of separation). Underlying the aliveness and knowing here seems a desperate wish for the separation to cease. This may be counterintuitive as the human paradigm being here is a rollercoaster of experience, on the surface seemingly the antithesis of non-separation.

Is the sensation I’m calling “whiteness” separate from the experience of it?

We are not talking about anything other than whiteness. Is whiteness separate from the experience of it?

I spent all Friday afternoon with a white cup.

A common thing was to catch myself adrift in thought, but then return to the whiteness.

creamy

bright

Whiteness is simple, thoughts dissipate when whiteness is known.

The whiteness Is (in retrospect was).

No experience before / after / behind or hiding within.

thanks

[JonathanR]

Hi Ian

Sorry for the delay in replying. I found myself in the position of not really knowing how to respond or what to say.

I realised in a session this week that the Iain persona is both shaped in response to trauma, and a mechanism to manage in the moment the underlying layers of rage and sorrow etc (so underlying sensations/emotions be encountered as proxy thought stories because it is taboo to rage or cry or wail about the deepest core pain of separation). Underlying the aliveness and knowing here seems a desperate wish for the separation to cease. This may be counterintuitive as the human paradigm being here is a rollercoaster of experience, on the surface seemingly the antithesis of non-separation.

Has it ever been seen that separation is simply not how things are?

Of course it’s possible to speak and think in terms of a self. It’s possible not to notice that there isn’t one of these. So it’s possible to keep on imagining that someone is separate from something.


Equally it is possible to see that there never was a self , a separate entity that is “me” . Then separation is more of an idea about how things are rather than the reality.

You’re obviously being honest about how you experience things but even on a rollercoaster, who is supposed to be separate from what?


Thanks for trying the white cup experiment. I’d always believed the story that seeing or hearing something was a matter of a perceiver, perceiving some thing that’s perceived. That’s how I’d been taught, how science describes things, as if there are three parts to this, always suggesting a separate perceiver, a separate object perceived and something done by the perceiver, perceiving.


The white cup experiment was meant to be a chance to look at what really goes on


Is there a perceiver doing perceiving of whiteness?

Is whiteness “separate” from the experience of it ?

Can you fit a credit card between whiteness and the experience of it?

If not, what ?



Love


Jon

[IainB]

Jon

Has it ever been seen that separation is simply not how things are?

Yes. The division between external and internal has become increasingly blurred. I'll keep focused on this.

Equally it is possible to see that there never was a self [...] even on a rollercoaster, who is supposed to be separate from what?

I like this equality and the opportunity it gives to be really clear. Even if there is an addiction to the me story and a belief that aspects of it hold compelling links to some form of emotional awakening, if I examine I can see/know the truth.

Is there a perceiver doing perceiving of whiteness?

I will look endlessly and slip into that warmth as the old beliefs are disregarded.

Is whiteness “separate” from the experience of it ?

I will keep looking.

Can you fit a credit card between whiteness and the experience of it?

Or even a cigarette paper? No, it's far to bright and apparent to have anything in-between.

If not, what ?

It's exciting to use 'what is' (the colours of the environment, or the rich darkness of eyes closed, or that well of energetic sensation in the chest are brightest) to snap into no-separation and slip out of focus on thoughts that seem to uphold the me-story. Colour and sensation are always there, turned towards, with a knowing that while thought continues to come and go what it might suggest is a shadow and can be relaxed away from to colour/sensation. I will do this continuously.

with thanks

[IainB]

Jon

I'm thinking to run with this as far as it goes.

What is, in terms of the colours of the environment and the sensations in the chest, is undeniable, clear, not needing of some separate perceiver.

Thoughts may distract, but each time I return to this and can sink in.

This has implications for the me but rather that get overly involved with that it is good to focus on knowing what appears Is, direct, no mediator.

with thanks

[JonathanR]

Hi Ian

This has implications for the me but rather that get overly involved with that it is good to focus on knowing what appears Is, direct, no mediator.

Yes! It doesn’t even take a concept for this to be seen clearly. No mediator. Just colour, or sound, or whatever, touch, smell, taste , just happening.

And then thought too. (This is what seems to floor a lot of people). Thoughts are also happening at various moments and the only difference between thoughts and these other non-conceptual sensations is that thoughts seem to “say” things , to be full of content, concepts, ideas. And do you notice that very many of these thoughts seem to inherently refer to a self?


The snag seems to be in taking these ideas as actual entities.


Don’t strain too intently on the white cup experiment. It’s rather important not to turn such things into a “practice” or to expect some experience to suddenly come of it. In the experience labelled “whiteness” there is absolutely no separation between White and the seeing of it. It’s primordial, so “effort” in trying to see it is rather like imagining that you must soon make a special effort to start walking, whilst you’ve been walking along all the time !


Love

Jon

[IainB]

Jon

do you notice that very many of these thoughts seem to inherently refer to a self?

I do, that thought content refers to both self and others. A thing is though, there would seem to be a conviction in that content, a conceeding that is automatic. In a similar way to instinctively experiencing colour, sensation and sound. However, you are clear that it can equally automatically be known that self and others appearing in this way be utterly illusory.

It’s rather important not to turn such things into a “practice” or to expect some experience

It is very tempting to do this because colour is colourful, sensation is radiant, sound is piercing and it makes thought content grey and diminished by comparison. I really want to take that primordialness as a tool immediately at hand to see enduringly and clearly that all those stories shifting in the grey mass of thought no longer have to seemingly contort and dominate (take over, for moments, with falsely implied realness). There is something bright and real. They are absolutely not bright and real. There is effort-ing in this though.

with thanks

[IainB]

Jon

It’s rather important not to turn such things into a “practice” or to expect some experience

It is very tempting to do this

Might you guide that I go through all the AE/DE experiments? I did these with Kay and could refer back to them. Rather than return to colourless each day?

with thanks

[JonathanR]

Hi Iain,

Please could you refer back to those? She is more comprehensive about those than I am and I have to go and read them again to remind myself what they all are.

All those exercises… they CAN be the clincher for some people but Ive also seen them used as a kind of workout routine that still doesn’t address the belief in a separate self.

That’s why I cautioned “ don’t turn it into a practice” I meant, in the sense that, rather than simply noticing that whiteness happens without a separate perceiver of white it can become “I stare and stare at a white thing and nothing happens”. This latter approach of overdoing the exercise or holding expectations of it can be deeply frustrating. What is not required is the hyper-focused attention of a cat watching a mouse.


With love

Jon

[IainB]

Jon

those exercise [can] be the clincher for some people but [may also form] a workout routine that...doesn’t address the belief in a separate self

I hear you. They didn't work for me before but back then I had no appetite for using something as simple yet profound as the non-separation of colour to correspond to the me encountered in thought content being utterly fabricated and as equally easy to see as empty as illusorily full. I wanted satisfaction, resolution, bigger, better, the fulfillment of the wishes of the ego that loves to spread its grey chimera fingers over whatever opportunity for change and betterment is chased.

One thing that hasn't changed is my desperate attempt to somehow use modern non-duality to fill the gaping chasm in my soul caused by core parental wounds, a fixing of the fearful vexed character hiding within me. I'm just more aware of this now.

Before I worked with Kay I did with John C. I feel a huge pull to looking at his points again, so graceful. I wish to represent some here, reworded and simplified for me. AE / DE came after these.

Give up any inkling you might know in advance what is being pointed out here. You have not the slightest idea of what it will be like. The tools you have turned up for the job with are redundent, blunt, alien, from some other epoch or civilisation entirely. Their use is detrimental to seeing. The frames of referance you think you know and are so ready to missaply here will only keep you in the dark.

and

It is natural to shelter behind our existing views and perceptions. They are familiar and seem to work somewhat.

Such beliefs are the walls of the shelter. They fulfill their own limiting prophecy. You're loath to step outside their protection. Look with honesty at what they seemingly protect. Encounter those further beliefs about the negative consequences of leaving the shelter. The reason we feel constrained by our limiting views is very simple, we deem them true.

There is a powerful message here for me that points to my belief in me. I look at it.

thanks

[IainB]

Jon

I will focus on the AE/DE material.

As a preamble:

Looking is not the same as seeking. Seeking is always towards something that is not present, or trying to get away from something that is present. Looking is investigating what is present; it's for no reason other than itself. It's done for its own sake. If you're expecting something from Looking, then you're not Looking, you're seeking for what you expect Looking will give you. The truth of Self already Is and there is no special place, practice etc to ‘get there….that would seeking…not Looking.

Then I wish to use this process for 'emotions' appearing especially fear, helplessness, anger etc.

Let’s have a Look at ‘fear’. I want you to ask the questions of yourself as you are Looking.

1. Close the eyes and see the word, ask yourself if the label/word ‘fear’ knows anything about fear. Keep focused, see the word ‘f e a r’ in your mind’s eye, e.g. across the forehead, and ask if that word knows anything about fear or are they just letters?

2. With eyes still closed, go to the sensation (wherever it is mainly located in the body) and ask yourself if the sensation itself knows anything about fear? Can a sensation actually know anything about fear? Have a look within the sensation and behind the sensation to see if you can locate anyone/anything that is in fear or that is creating the fear.

3. As your eyes are closed…a mental image/outline or an idea of a ‘me’ may appear, I want you to ask yourself if that image/outline/idea can know anything about fear? Have a look if you can find anything that can be in fear.

Spend time with the sensation. Notice all thoughts and images that come up…but don’t follow…just be with the sensation. Notice your breathing and breathe normally. Until the sensation begins to subside or dissipates...just notice it and love it.

This is great as the process uses emotions as they come up, but is analogous for looking for me.

thanks

[JonathanR]

Looking is not the same as seeking. Seeking is always towards something that is not present, or trying to get away from something that is present. Looking is investigating what is present; it's for no reason other than itself. It's done for its own sake. If you're expecting something from Looking, then you're not Looking, you're seeking for what you expect Looking will give you. The truth of Self already Is and there is no special place, practice etc to ‘get there….that would seeking…not Looking.

Is either a seeker or a looker found anywhere?

[IainB]

Hi Jon

Is either a seeker or a looker found anywhere?

Non-separation is known. The cloud of thought content is disregarded, dis-identified with.

There is no separate 'looker' and no seeker character.

with thanks

[JonathanR]

Hi Ian


How is it going? Have you been trying different exercises?