Before I run out of time....

[KateB]

Much of the [ast day or two staring about feeling 'full up', amazingly same-but-different

'selfing' thougts do pop up but are not at all sticky.... much more engrossed in how 'competent' bodies are and the play of wind and rain (England, after all). And 'I'm' perky, delighted...

Noticing sometimes that 'things' are also often 'thoughts', but not going there for the moment.

About to go out, onto a train and into lots of people... will see how that plays out!


SO, SO grateful

[Elad]

Dear Kate,

Yes—same but different. Nothing has changed, and yet everything is seen freshly, effortlessly. The stickiness is gone, and what remains? Just this, as it is.

Let it all move as it does—trains, crowds, wind, rain, thoughts, no-thoughts. No need to hold onto anything or figure anything out.

Write again soon, let me know how things move.

[KateB]

Write again soon, let me know how things move.

A good day yesterday 'out in the wild' with people and complexity

Not much analysing going on, but the journey seemed oddly straightforward... despite slow busses and a missed train... and the conversations spontaneous, no strategising. ....

lovely

[Elad]

Wonderful. Do you feel ready for "check-point questions"- these are a set of questions we ask when it looks like seeing has happened/is happening. Obviously discovering and seeing through limiting beliefs and letting go of resistances continues. The way it feels here, that will go on for the rest of life. So this is more about that the clarity of no separate self/doer/controller/responsible one (and no special no-self) has been recognized, and now it flows from there. Let me know if you feel ready to receive these or if there is something you want to ask about before.

[KateB]

Let me know if you feel ready to receive these or if there is something you want to ask about before.

I have nothing to ask (at the moment!) .... new territory

Up for your 'check point questions' ... thanks

[Elad]

Lovely!

Here comes what used to be called the final questions, but has later been renamed to the checkpoint questions, as there is no finality to discovering.

Take your time with these. There is no hurry. The invitation is to respond to each question from your direct experience and stay away from intellectualizing. Please also answer all of them in one message.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?

[KateB]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate entity 'self/me/I..' not in any way... and never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Its a very versatile story that is believed unquestioningly by almost everyone in society. Its like the 'Santa' story in the sense that it is taught at a very early age. But its unlike that story in the sense that the people who teach it (Parents, society..) actually themselves believe the notion, so they wholeheartedly teach 'self' to their children. In that sense it is more like a religious belief. The word and thought processes around 'self' are embedded in language (at least in English..) Its possible that our brains are primed to 'understand' self because the commonest reading of evolution is in terms of chance favouring 'fit' individuals.... that theory seems untestable now!

Like every baby, I was taught to think of 'myself' as having my own potential, responsibilities, opinions, memories and much more.... never questioned until I was much, much older.

As of recently... 'self' remains a pervasive and useful concept for negotiating with others, but it doesn't stand up to analysis .... It is not 'in' reality and behaving as though it is real has quite a lot of downsides - to the extent of seeming quite daft.
I dont feel ready to "describe it fully as I see it now" - or describe anything "fully"... "my self" is living in a different context from what it was a week ago...

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Compared to before, it feels oddly "matter of fact", somehow more authentic. Life seems more straightforward, uncomplicated, open, ... amazing, (though that feeling is still cooking and there are surprises). There is not much inner dialogue and what there is is easily spotted and isn't that interesting. Same but different ...

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

Hard to be sure what "pushed me over" - perhaps it was just springtime..?!
But the story would be: 1. that poor Elad had struggled for months to stop me intellectualising everything and to honour direct experience. 2. After lots of exercises, I really couldn't refute the proposition that there was no self-entity... but remained stuck. 3. He suggested I look again at the LU quotes videos - which for some reason I had never watched, tho I had read the book and listened to many conversations. They are excellent and I took them slowly. With Elad, we had covered the question of whether my resistance related to fear, but I had never uncovered any sense of fear about seeing through the self illusion. But when I noticed that I was oddly distracted when listening through LU quotes number 3 (fear), I mentioned it to Elad. He suggested I stay with whatever feeling corresponded to 'distracted' - rather than bunk off - and watch whether is stayed or passed away. The very same day I had been talking to a good friend (not about any of this) and he said "Kate, you're always putting obstacles in the path of the obvious". SO when I readdressed the "where/what is the self?" question and stayed with the reisitance... the resistance just vanished.... I felt as though cogs were churning in my body and began to giggle (I'm 70 years old and not a giggler...) No fireworks... that was 'it'.
Im not sure that this 'explanation' is correct in any sense but I feel very lucky to have had Elad and my friend "on my case"!

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

Decision? - easy, these are all labelled post-hoc. no decider, no decisions, just stuff happening
Intention? there seems to be a drift, but who does it belong to? not 'me'.
Free will? - again whose? It seems wondering about 'free will' isn't a good question .... who/what is free from who/what...Stuff happens
Choice? Like decisions ... labelled post hoc... but there are still habits - coffee not tea in the morning is still around
Control? From right now, it seems that 'things' are MUCH to complex to be controllable, and having a sense of control would be massively conceited

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

No idea how things happen, or how they 'work' - understanding and 'explanations' way beyond the capacity of a human brain IMHO.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Oh dear, I cant answer that now.... A week ago I would probably have been more ready to give a lecture about personal responsibility! (There are still feelings of revulsion if I see gratuitous harm eg. hitting a dog??) Sorry, no answer ....

8) Anything to add?

Feeling fortunate

[Elad]

Dear Kate, beautiful!! Lots of clarity her and all though there is no separate you, the unique flavor of "your" sincere expression comes through...


A few things:

As of recently... 'self' remains a pervasive and useful concept for negotiating with others, but it doesn't stand up to analysis .... It is not 'in' reality and behaving as though it is real has quite a lot of downsides - to the extent of seeming quite daft.

Not sure I understand this.... Thinking and talking continues normally, there is a functional sense of self, but is it believed that there is actually something separate and enduring that is you, that the the thought me refers to?

I dont feel ready to "describe it fully as I see it now" - or describe anything "fully"... "my self" is living in a different context from what it was a week ago...

What "I" could be fully awake or not be fully awake, could fully see or not fully see? Could there ever be a self that is awake, or just that self is seen for as just thought - or not?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Oh dear, I cant answer that now.... A week ago I would probably have been more ready to give a lecture about personal responsibility! (There are still feelings of revulsion if I see gratuitous harm eg. hitting a dog??) Sorry, no answer ....

Is “responsibility” any different from “choice” or “control”, what makes this harder to answer? Is there some resistance to see how this is superimposed like control and choice? Look/feel, let me know what comes up.

[KateB]

Q. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now....
.... YOU: Not sure I understand this.... Thinking and talking continues normally, there is a functional sense of self, but is it believed that there is actually something separate and enduring that is you, that the the thought me refers to?

I agree that I wasnt clear...
I was trying to convey a current perspective on the 'functional sense of self'. There definitely isnt a separate enduring 'me' that the thought-illusion refers to - in fact it is now much clearer that holding onto a self-illusion has downsides.

.....
ME:I dont feel ready to "describe it fully as I see it now" - or describe anything "fully"... "my self" is living in a different context from what it was a week ago...
YOU:What "I" could be fully awake or not be fully awake, could fully see or not fully see? Could there ever be a self that is awake, or just that self is seen for as just thought - or not?

Im not disagreeing with what you said... rather trying so say that it is hard to see how 'any - thing' could be 'fully awake' but also acknowledging that just because 'something has happened' that the 'whole picture' becomes explicable. I dont feel 'provisional' about the the self being an illusion, but there is some provisionality about any sort of sense of 'completeness'.

7)Q. What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Me: Oh dear, I cant answer that now.... A week ago I would probably have been more ready to give a lecture about personal responsibility! (There are still feelings of revulsion if I see gratuitous harm eg. hitting a dog??) Sorry, no answer ....
You:Is “responsibility” any different from “choice” or “control”, what makes this harder to answer? Is there some resistance to see how this is superimposed like control and choice? Look/feel, let me know what comes up.

Responsibility is fundamentally a thought, also a habit of thinking. It is a story that ties inputs (seeing a dog being hit) to action (running and remonstrating) post-hoc, a 'claiming of responsibility'. SO yes, very much like choice and control. There isnt an enduring-self to hold 'responsibility'.

[Elad]

Im not disagreeing with what you said... rather trying so say that it is hard to see how 'any - thing' could be 'fully awake' but also acknowledging that just because 'something has happened' that the 'whole picture' becomes explicable. I dont feel 'provisional' about the the self being an illusion, but there is some provisionality about any sort of sense of 'completeness'.

Yes! This is not the end of discovery, clarification ad so forth. Rather like the beginning of a new chapter. Now there is another clarity from which the unfolding continues.

Responsibility is fundamentally a thought, also a habit of thinking. It is a story that ties inputs (seeing a dog being hit) to action (running and remonstrating) post-hoc, a 'claiming of responsibility'. SO yes, very much like choice and control. There isnt an enduring-self to hold 'responsibility'.

Right.

Okay Kate. At this point I would like to share your answers to the "check-point" questions with some fellow guides. They might have more questions to deepen clarity, or not. After that process, we will talk about what might be helpful from here. How does that sound with you?

[KateB]

fine, thanks Kate

[Elad]

A guide R, asked the following questions:

1) Who or What is feeling provisional or not feeling provisional regarding any sort of sense of ‘completeness’?

2) Please describe this ‘feeling’ from direct experience.

3) Is there a belief that there could be some sort of further completeness available to be sensed in the future?

[KateB]

Such good questions... its been helpful to address them!

1) Who or What is feeling provisional or not feeling provisional regarding any sort of sense of ‘completeness’?

What's 'owning' the provisionality??
Since dropping the illusion of self, 'seeing' remains in terms of entities rather than blocks of colour, lines rather than 'raw data'... 'living' still in time and space...etc.
Looking at the world, it seems flat, but thoughts bring a belief in the story that it is round, The assumption that there is 'more to discover' after seeing through self is also a story, a thought. Its not 'there' in direct experience. Saying exactly 'what' is carrying the sense of provisionality is tough... its to do with different sorts of 'knowing' (direct/indirect) and habits of thinking.

2) Please describe this ‘feeling’ from direct experience.

looking carefully, its not there in direct experience.

3) Is there a belief that there could be some sort of further completeness available to be sensed in the future?

yes, thats there, but its a thought/story absorbed from years of stories about awakening.

[KateB]

2) Please describe this ‘feeling’ from direct experience.
looking carefully, its not there in direct experience.

Sorry, to be clear, I had muddled direct experience (where there was no feeling of provisionality) with thought (where there was)

[Elad]

Dear Kate, four guides looked at your answers and had no further questions meaning you officially "graduated LU" 🙃 As you know, there is no gate and no crosses the gate and discovery and seeing through blindspots continues... And yet, a chapter comes to conclusion now and a new one starts. It has been a pleasure and an honor to do this process with you and I will be happy to stay in touch. You can write me here on this thread if questions come up or to my email. Beside this, here is a list of good resources, to support continued exploration. It can be super valuable to share with peers. I wanna particularly emphasize Vinces meetings that are not only an opportunity to be heard and talk with peers, but also to support others who are still in the initial process... Also, once this has settled more into life, you might consider becoming a guide. I think you would be a good one, and all the nooks and crannies and allies you went down will only broaden your empathic understanding of other seekers. Talk to me, if/when the moment comes where that calls you, after things have had some time to settle.


Here is the list of resources:

Resource list:

3 weekly free zoom meetings which offer a space to listen, share and even offer guidance as and if the inclination arises, with Vince Schubert. Please contact Vince Schubert via email: vinceschubert@gmail.com for a link and schedule.

Simply Awake app - Free app for your phone that contains dozens of meditation that will help you to keep looking deeper.

Also a great video from Angelo Dilullo on this process and how it deepens on its own, if not resisted, YouTube: Simply Always Awake "Self and No-Self"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X_Xpd10pV0&t=38s

If you're interested in the 10 fetters (what we did here pertains to the first 3) go to Kevin Shanilek's website for information:
https://simplytheseen.com/

Also a great video conversation with Ilona and Kevin Shanilek:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWfBHN6oRk

Todd and Pernille Lent Damore also offer many helpful videos on each fetter on their YouTube Channels:
Unfettered Mindfulness and The Awakening Curriculum

Perfectly Okay.Org:
https://perfectlyokay.org/ - A free, supportive community that has many different modalities and meetings.

Luchana & Lubo have group on Thursdays. Please contact Luchana at:
luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting, contact:
admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link and schedule.