Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

[Seeker2019]

Sioned,

sorry for the pause. I was a bit sick, then hesitant to start with the exercise. I am considering stopping this exploration. It feels like I am again and again doing the same things, and the message is staring me in the face but somehow I don't get it. I feel like wasting both our time, and it often feels forced to do these exercise, like trying to convince me of something, repeating something often enough until I believe it, instead of really seeing it.

[Seamist]

Don't give up yet xxx

[Seeker2019]

Ok :)

I will do the exercise later and get back on track

Thank you, Sioned
Xx

[Seamist]

ok xx

[Seeker2019]

What does description have to do with actual experience?

In terms of experience, not much, barely anything at all. Description works with concepts, with memory, with words and images. Experience, is just, well the direct experience. A taste is a taste and there is nothing else like it, nothin similar, nothing close. Words, concepts, descriptions are something totally different.

Is sense of self referring to imaginary self or something that is experienced?

To an imaginary self. A concept, somehow it sneaks into memory.

Is there a self/I in the experience?

Not that I can find.

What is found?

Just the experience itself and then thoughts, concepts about it. A story of an experiencer

[Seamist]

Hi Alex

Experience, is just, well the direct experience. A taste is a taste and there is nothing else like it, nothin similar, nothing close. Words, concepts, descriptions are something totally different.

great, yes.

What is found?
Just the experience itself and then thoughts, concepts about it. A story of an experiencer

yes

Really look at a chair.
What exactly gives that object it's 'chairness'?
Imagine back when that chair was being made.
When exactly did the components become 'chair'
Think and picture in your mind all the infinite different sorts of chairs. Really make it vivid.

What makes them all 'chairs'?

- Then think of the words 'I' and 'me' in the same way...imagine all different people saying “I did this”, “I am that”. Try this also when watching TV with all the different characters etc.
- When with a group of people in conversation, what makes them all 'I'?
Tell me what comes up.

xx

[Seeker2019]

This is really interesting, I like to give it some more time and will report back tomorrow, ok?

[Seamist]

Ok

[Seeker2019]

Really look at a chair.
What exactly gives that object it's 'chairness'?

Nothing in the chair. It is a perception, construct of the mind. It looks similar to things that have been used to sit and and other people have called it chair. I have called it chair. It has a structure that lends itself to be used to perform an action: sitting (at a table).

Imagine back when that chair was being made.
When exactly did the components become 'chair'

When they remind me enough of my idea of chair, it's not a sharp delineation its a matter of interpretation. But there is a threshold: without a thing to lean the back on it would be a stool

Think and picture in your mind all the infinite different sorts of chairs. Really make it vivid.
What makes them all 'chairs'?

They are all chairs, because the mind says so.

- Then think of the words 'I' and 'me' in the same way...imagine all different people saying “I did this”, “I am that”. Try this also when watching TV with all the different characters etc.
- When with a group of people in conversation, what makes them all 'I'?
Tell me what comes up.

I see the similarity to the chair exercise. When are people seen as an "I", a self? The mind says so, because of convention and being used to this concept. It is a story as with the chair! But its harder to accept this

[Seamist]

Hi Alex

What makes them all 'chairs'?
They are all chairs, because the mind says so

yes, well noticed

When are people seen as an "I", a self? The mind says so, because of convention and being used to this concept.

yes, it's the same.

Lie on your back and relax. Have a look at the ceiling.
There is thought to be a distance between that what is thought to be known as ‘body’ and that what is labelled ‘ceiling’.

Close your eyes. Now focus on the space between body and ceiling.
Take your time, breathe in and out and simply look. Keep the eyes shut.
What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?

xx

[Seeker2019]

No, no body in direct experience. No ceiling and no distance. But in concepts I get the body, distance, ceiling. There is a "feeling" of the room, location, distance and so on. I think partially it is mental images and verbal concepts that make up this feeling.

[Seamist]

Just stick to the direct experience. We've not interested in concepts at the moment!
Try the exercise again
X

[Seeker2019]

Ok, I hope this is more direct: First I felt like my boundaries became soft, the sensations of the body became not well defined, and I felt an expansion and opening up. Then I felt sensations in the face, pressure, movement, shifting. I felt a unease, aversion and mix of sensations that indicate agitation.

[Seamist]

Hi

First I felt like my boundaries became soft, the sensations of the body became not well defined, and I felt an expansion and opening up. Then I felt sensations in the face, pressure, movement, shifting.

That's interesting!

I felt a unease, aversion and mix of sensations that indicate agitation.

This is interesting too - and here you're interpreting, thinking. Do you get that?
x

[Seeker2019]

Yes, it's an interpretation, there are sensations in the body and I interpret them as agitation, aversion etc. They are not the direct experience.... It's hard to stay on the DE in this exercise.