Seeking the end of Seeking

[Govinda]

Trust that life will expose the illusion of "you".

What would you ask or tell me that would "kill me"?

[Govinda]

Wayne Liquorman: You didn’t ask to become a seeker. The seeking started. So you can’t give it up ! It’s the same as having sex with a six hundred pound gorilla,… you’re not done until the gorilla is done.
Jim Newman: THERE IS NOTHING TO FIND BECAUSE NOTHING IS LOST. THE ULTIMATE EMBRACE IS ALL THERE IS.

Knocked the mind out for a while.

is it possible to see that there is no self, whilst still having a belief that there is one?

I like that question. Seems to be a portal to clarity.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Seb,

estion: the wish is more for a shattering question.

I know what you were asking. Why do you think that I turned it back on you?

This is like pulling my hair to getting myself out of the mud, isn`t it?

No, what was the very first thing that came to mind. You know stuff that you don't know that you know.

Maybe You could tell me that any attempt to look through the illusion of self is absolutely futile and hopeless.

Excellent. We can work with this.
..but let me paraphrase this to be more meaningful.
"any attempt by a self to recognize that self is an illusion is futile and hopeless."
This would be like pulling your hair to getting yourself out of the mud, so what needs to happen to recognize the illusion in play?

The "center" was absent and the veil of me as a manager of life also. While in previous glimpses a subtle center or observer or owner usually seemingly remained somewhere in the background with this one it was totally beyond thoughts, control, center, or owner.

Would you say that the "center/manager" was the self?
What ceased to function for that moment?
If you were to sit down and compose a list of all of the physical/emotional/mental characteristics of Sebastian, how many pages would you fill?
Is every one of those characteristics believed to be accurate?
Do you respond to those beliefs?

with love

vince

[Govinda]

I know what you were asking. Why do you think that I turned it back on you?

maybe you asked me to enter unknown territory outside of the known mind and me thinking where the desired freedom is.

No, what was the very first thing that came to mind. You know stuff that you don't know that you know.

Not sure if that is meant as a question. First thing that came to mind. I can`t kill "myself". Later there appeared questions like "What is beyond the mind?" or "What means "no self" without thoughts?"

so what needs to happen to recognize the illusion in play?

maybe it needs a change or shift in perception. The addition "in play" triggered some laughter. Maybe there happened a small shift with that addition you made.

Would you say that the "center/manager" was the self?

not sure what it was but there seemed to be some kind of subject.

What ceased to function for that moment?

seeking, thinking, tension, resistance, judging, especially thinking.

If you were to sit down and compose a list of all of the physical/emotional/mental characteristics of Sebastian, how many pages would you fill?

ten pages maybe DinA4

Is every one of those characteristics believed to be accurate?

not sure about that. Characteristics are like labels and labels are not accurate, but maybe they are believed more or less anyway.

Do you respond to those beliefs?

Which beliefs? Beliefs in characteristics? I guess yes, I do respond to them, that means the body responds to them in a kind of resonance.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Seb, do you respond to thoughts?
If you have a thought "I like ice cream.". Do you feel like having some?
If you have a thought "I am good at (something)". Do you feel good about it?
If you have a thought "I can't do this (anything)". Do you feel a bit bad?
What I'm getting at is that although there is no actual separate self anywhere, there is (you say) a 10 page story about Sebastian. A story that you are responding to constantly. Most of the time totally unaware of it.
Do you grok this?
If so, tell me what we need to do to 'wake up'?

vince

[Govinda]

do you respond to thoughts?

The body does.

If you have a thought "I like ice cream.". Do you feel like having some?

maybe in a mild way.

If you have a thought "I am good at (something)". Do you feel good about it?

not sure. There is nothing I can claim to be good at.

If you have a thought "I can't do this (anything)". Do you feel a bit bad?

I guess so.

What I'm getting at is that although there is no actual separate self anywhere, there is (you say) a 10 page story about Sebastian. A story that you are responding to constantly. Most of the time totally unaware of it.
Do you grok this?

yes

If so, tell me what we need to do to 'wake up'?

not believing the story of Sebastian.

[Govinda]

While believing or not believing the story seems to be a Story too suggesting a subject object division.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sebastian,

While believing or not believing the story seems to be a Story too

Yes. ..but if you describe responses to those thoughts, then the story is only required for communication purposes.

suggesting a subject object division.

Exactly. SUGGESTING!
Is a suggestion of something a proof of anything?
Our language has evolved to insist on a subject/object relationship.
Do this exercise and let's see if we can put this one to bed;
Take a cup and place it in front of you.
Start looking at it and notice thoughts labelling what you see.
Consider the process of looking.
Consider the process of seeing.
Watch thoughts as you consider who is seeing. Notice what happens to seeing as you consider this. Did the seeing stop?
Go back to simply watching thoughts as you look at the cup.
After a while of watching thoughts, they will get bored and slow down. Now look for spaces between thoughts.
Focus on seeing in the spaces. They may be milliseconds, but notice them.
There will be no labelling. ..and anyway, the colours, the textures, the shapes, etc will be too subtle, too complex to be accurately described.
As this seeing is happening, ask yourself can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Is there only seeing?
When you finish seeing, do you then recognize that cup is a concept. A cup that has uses and takes up space, and need washing after use? A concept that includes shape, form, color, what it is intended to be used for.
..but we aren't actually seeing it anymore. We look at it but recognize a vessel to contain something. The details have vanished leaving an impression.

with love

vince

[Govinda]

Is a suggestion of something a proof of anything?

No

Watch thoughts as you consider who is seeing. Notice what happens to seeing as you consider this. Did the seeing stop?

No, but seeing seems to be more unclear and tension happens in the heard and eyes.

As this seeing is happening, ask yourself can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Is there only seeing?

Can't finde anything else but seeing. No subject and no object.

When you finish seeing, do you then recognize that cup is a concept. A cup that has uses and takes up space, and need washing after use? A concept that includes shape, form, color, what it is intended to be used for.

Yes

..but we aren't actually seeing it anymore. We look at it but recognize a vessel to contain something. The details have vanished leaving an impression.

Yes, Experience overlayed by concepts or thoughts I guess.

[vinceschubert]

Hey Sebastian, Do you recognize that seeing was direct experience by your eyes (and interpreted experience by your brain) and you can see that self can't be directly experienced?
The cup lable incorporates much more than can be directly experienced. It is a concept that includes what we use it for, how we feel about it, etc.
Just as the back of your head is a concept right up to the moment that we touch it.
Can the who or what that we normally call the self be anything other than a concept?
Isn't self a series of sensations that we pull together into a story that is held together by logic (more thoughts)?

with love

vince

[Govinda]

Do you recognize that seeing was direct experience by your eyes (and interpreted experience by your brain) and you can see that self can't be directly experienced?

yes. Self and interpretations are not direct experience. while self seems to be also felt apparently.

Can the who or what that we normally call the self be anything other than a concept?

yes the self seems to be a story or concept with effects on the body.

Isn't self a series of sensations that we pull together into a story that is held together by logic (more thoughts)?

what is self? if I ask directly it appears to be more a story or concept than sensations. I can not find a real self but in thought.

[vinceschubert]

hey Govinda,

yes. Self and interpretations are not direct experience. while self seems to be also felt apparently.

There is no questions that something is felt. Sensations, right?
If mind said that they were a pink elephant would you believe it?
Now it's kind of obvious why you believe mind when it says this must be your self. Can you tell me why?

yes the self seems to be a story or concept with effects on the body.

excellent that you recognize this, so can you see other stories that you respond to?

what is self? if I ask directly it appears to be more a story or concept than sensations. I can not find a real self but in thought.

Very good. Now this is a big one... If you look clearly you will see that ALL (so called) objects are found only in thoughts. Including other people. Please ponder this and tell me what comes up?

with love

vince

[Govinda]

There is no questions that something is felt. Sensations, right?

yes

If mind said that they were a pink elephant would you believe it?

no

Now it's kind of obvious why you believe mind when it says this must be your self. Can you tell me why?

Guess self is conditioned over decades since childhood and everybody seems to support it by believing in their own self and others.

excellent that you recognize this, so can you see other stories that you respond to?

yes

If you look clearly you will see that ALL (so called) objects are found only in thoughts. Including other people. Please ponder this and tell me what comes up?

Experience seems to become clearer, more direct, more intimate, with less thought overlay.

[vinceschubert]

'evening Sebastian,

Guess self is conditioned over decades since childhood and everybody seems to support it by believing in their own self and others.

Yes exactly. As well as the seemingly inbuilt need to 'belong" to the herd brings intense pressure to conform.

can you see other stories that you respond to?

yes

At a guess around 1 or 2% of thoughts are useful. The rest are just ramblings that reinforce or enhance the idea that we are ok.
Now with this in mind, is there ever a time during your waking hours where there is a complete absence of thoughts?
Here, we are alluding to a new relationship with out thoughts.
What might that be?

Experience seems to become clearer, more direct, more intimate, with less thought overlay.

When you say "less thought overlay.", are there less thoughts or are they less insistent that you engage with them?

vince

[Govinda]

Hi there, fell asleep early yesterday.

Now with this in mind, is there ever a time during your waking hours where there is a complete absence of thoughts?

almost no.

Here, we are alluding to a new relationship with out thoughts.
What might that be?

Thoughts are not real. On a "relationship" level withdrawing attention from thought, instead putting attention more on experience.

When you say "less thought overlay.", are there less thoughts or are they less insistent that you engage with them?

both, less thoughts and less insistent.