Guide to truth

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,

This morning I had a clearer understanding of how a bunch of thoughts don't necessarily mean that there is a thinker behind the thoughts. That there is anything directing or organizing them. This is in spite of the feeling of familiarity of the thoughts, or the feeling that this is "me." When I tried to investigate what that feeling of "Me" is-- sensation, thought, thought memories, a combination of all that-- I hit a wall. And where would resistance like that be coming from?

WHAT THAT MEANS IS…CAN YOU FIND A DIVIDING LINE BETWEEN EXPERIENCE ITSELF AND SENSATION? OR TO PUT IT ANOTHER WAY CAN YOU FIND A DIVIDING LINE BETWEEN ‘KNOWING’ (EXPERIENCE/AWARENESS) AND THE ‘KNOWN’ (SENSATION)?

I can't find a dividing line.


WHERE DO YOU END AND SENSATION BEGIN?
I can't find that dividing line.

WHERE DOES SENSATION END AND THOUGHT BEGIN?
These seem different.

WHERE DOES THOUGHT END AND TASTE BEGIN?
These also seem different.

WHERE DOES TASTE END AND SOUND BEGIN? WHERE DOES SOUND END AND SMELL BEGIN?

These also seem different.

There is NO soundsensationthoughtcoloursmelltaste AND experience. Experience is appearing AS soundsensationthoughtcoloursmelltaste, so they are one and the same thing.
_________
I don't get this yet.

AND SINCE THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING….HOW CAN THERE POSSIBLY BE EXPERIENCE AND SENSATION? OR EXPERIENCE AND THOUGHT, OR EXPERIENCE AND COLOUR, OR EXPERIENCE AND SMELL, OR EXPERIENCE AND TASTE, OR EXPERIENCE AND SOUND?

This seems clearer. Experience is all of these things.



If we use the example of choosing a hand to raise…for a decision to be made that means:

1. that there must be a someone or something, and
2. this someone/something is thinking
3. and this someone/something created and specifically chose which thoughts to think in the moment
4. and this someone/something then made a choice based on the decision made via thinking which hand and when to raise it.
5. and through that choice, the thought chosen (eg raise right hand) was the catalyst that made the right hand raise (which is cause and effect = time)
6. and last but not least, that there are hands that can be raised!

IS THIS CLEAR?

This is clear until #6.


SO, CAN A CHOOSE/DECIDER BE FOUND ANYWHERE IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM THAT IS CHOOSING/DECIDING ANYTHING?

I can't find a chooser/decider.

love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hello Carolyn,

This morning I had a clearer understanding of how a bunch of thoughts don't necessarily mean that there is a thinker behind the thoughts. That there is anything directing or organizing them. This is in spite of the feeling of familiarity of the thoughts, or the feeling that this is "me." When I tried to investigate what that feeling of "Me" is-- sensation, thought, thought memories, a combination of all that-- I hit a wall. And where would resistance like that be coming from?

Why would that be resistance? You saw very clearly what the ‘feeling of me is’…..sensation, thought , thought memories (which is just thought). What else is there to see? A disappearance of the feeling labelled ‘me’?

AND INSTEAD OF ASKING ME…DID YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE AE OF RESISTANCE ACTUALLY IS? LOOK, LOOK, LOOK. AND THEN YOU TELL ME WHAT THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE OF ‘RESISTANCE’ IS.

If you are hoping (expectation) that there will always be a clear seeing in every moment that there is no ‘me’, then you are setting yourself up to continue to seek, trying to recreate that experience over and over and over. The seeing through the illusory self is a realisation and not an experience. Experiences come and go, that is the nature of the Dream…however a realisation is that…a realisation. That doesn’t mean thoughts will stop appearing saying there is a ‘me’ or that the ‘feeling’ labelled ‘me’ is going to disappear forever. There was no illusory self before this exploration started and there isn’t one now reading this and there won’t be one tomorrow.

You have already clearly seen, several times that there is no ‘me’, whether a feeling of ‘me’ appears or not. And whether or not the ‘seeing’ last a minute, a second or a few minutes….makes no difference…the seeing has happened.

What that means is…can you find a dividing line between experience itself and sensation? Or to put it another way can you find a dividing line between ‘knowing’ (experience/awareness) and the ‘known’ (sensation)?

I can't find a dividing line.

So…really take on board to what I am pointing to here
IS THERE AN EXPERIENCER OF EXPERIENCE OR IS THERE JUST EXPERIENCE?

Where do you end and sensation begin?
I can't find that dividing line.
Where does sensation end and thought begin?
These seem different.
Where does thought end and taste begin?
These also seem different.
Where does taste end and sound begin? Where does sound end and smell begin?
These also seem different.

I NEVER ASKED IF THEY SEEMED DIFFERENT, I ASKED WHERE DOES SENSATION END AND THOUGHT BEGIN? WHERE DOES THOUGHT END AND TASTE BEGIN? WHERE DOES TASTE END AND SOUND BEGIN? WHERE DOES SOUND END AND SMELL BEGIN?

AND WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM? IF EXPERIENCE IS APPEARING AS THOUGHT, SOUND, SMELL, SENSATION, TASTE AND COLOUR…WHAT EXACTLY IS THE DIFFERENCE, OTHER THAN THE CONTENT…WHICH IS THOUGHT?

IS THERE SOUND AND CONTENT?
IS THERE THOUGHT AND CONTENT?
IS THERE SENSATION AND CONTENT?
IS THERE COLOUR AND CONTENT?
IS THERE TASTE AND CONTENT?
IS THERE SMELL AND CONTENT?

There is no soundsensationthoughtcoloursmelltaste and experience. Experience is appearing as soundsensationthoughtcoloursmelltaste, so they are one and the same thing.

I don't get this yet.

WHAT DOES THE LABEL ‘EXPERIENCE’ ACTUALLY POINT TO?

And since they are one and the same thing….how can there possibly be experience and sensation? Or experience and thought, or experience and colour, or experience and smell, or experience and taste, or experience and sound?

This seems clearer. Experience is all of these things.

So if you can see that experience is all 'things', how can you not see the experience = soundsensationtastesmellthought?
experience APPEARS as all of these ‘things’, but is none of these ‘things’. Hence the “THIS/experience is everything and yet no thing”.

LET’S LOOK AT A TV REMOTE. THOUGHT LABELS COLOUR AS TV REMOTE

SO IGNORE THE LABEL ‘TV REMOTE’ AND YOU ARE LEFT WITH THE COLOUR ‘BLACK’.
IGNORE THE LABEL ‘BLACK’ AND YOU ARE LEFT WITH THE LABEL ‘COLOUR’.
IGNORE THE LABEL ‘COLOUR’ AND WHAT ARE YOU LEFT WITH?

If we use the example of choosing a hand to raise…for a decision to be made that means:
1. That there must be a someone or something, and
2. This someone/something is thinking
3. And this someone/something created and specifically chose which thoughts to think in the moment
4. And this someone/something then made a choice based on the decision made via thinking which hand and when to raise it.
5. And through that choice, the thought chosen (eg raise right hand) was the catalyst that made the right hand raise (which is cause and effect = time)
6. And last but not least, that there are hands that can be raised!
Is this clear?

This is clear until #6.

What are you actually LOOKING when you aren't sure about something??? We did the exercise on the body and I went over the body with the picture of Einstein and now you say that #6 is unclear?

WHAT IS THE AE OF ‘BODY’? WHAT IS THE AE OF ‘HAND’??

So, can a choose/decider be found anywhere in any shape or form that is choosing/deciding anything?

I can't find a chooser/decider.

SO THEN IF YOU CANNOT FIND A CHOOSER/DECIDER…HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY FIND A ‘ME’!?

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,

Tonight I'm having trouble answering your questions. I feel overwhelmed by so many. I'm going to have to get back to you tomorrow.

love,
Carolyn

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,

AND INSTEAD OF ASKING ME…DID YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE AE OF RESISTANCE ACTUALLY IS? LOOK, LOOK, LOOK. AND THEN YOU TELL ME WHAT THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE OF ‘RESISTANCE’ IS.

Resistance is thought.


IS THERE AN EXPERIENCER OF EXPERIENCE OR IS THERE JUST EXPERIENCE?
There is just experience.


I NEVER ASKED IF THEY SEEMED DIFFERENT, I ASKED WHERE DOES SENSATION END AND THOUGHT BEGIN?

I don't see an ending or beginning.

WHERE DOES THOUGHT END AND TASTE BEGIN? WHERE DOES TASTE END AND SOUND BEGIN? WHERE DOES SOUND END AND SMELL BEGIN?
I don't see an ending or beginning to these either.

AND WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM? IF EXPERIENCE IS APPEARING AS THOUGHT, SOUND, SMELL, SENSATION, TASTE AND COLOUR…WHAT EXACTLY IS THE DIFFERENCE, OTHER THAN THE CONTENT…WHICH IS THOUGHT?

No difference.

IS THERE SOUND AND CONTENT?
IS THERE THOUGHT AND CONTENT?
IS THERE SENSATION AND CONTENT?
IS THERE COLOUR AND CONTENT?
IS THERE TASTE AND CONTENT?
IS THERE SMELL AND CONTENT?

I don't really understand these questions. I think the answers are all no.


WHAT DOES THE LABEL ‘EXPERIENCE’ ACTUALLY POINT TO?
The five senses plus thought


LET’S LOOK AT A TV REMOTE. THOUGHT LABELS COLOUR AS TV REMOTE

SO IGNORE THE LABEL ‘TV REMOTE’ AND YOU ARE LEFT WITH THE COLOUR ‘BLACK’.
IGNORE THE LABEL ‘BLACK’ AND YOU ARE LEFT WITH THE LABEL ‘COLOUR’.
IGNORE THE LABEL ‘COLOUR’ AND WHAT ARE YOU LEFT WITH?

Nothing


WHAT IS THE AE OF ‘BODY’? WHAT IS THE AE OF ‘HAND’??
Thought plus sensation plus color.


SO THEN IF YOU CANNOT FIND A CHOOSER/DECIDER…HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY FIND A ‘ME’!?
I can't find a me.
Love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hey Carolyn,

And instead of asking me…did you look at what the ae of resistance actually is? Look, look, look. And then you tell me what the actual experience of ‘resistance’ is.

Resistance is thought.

I would like for you to start to LOOK for yourself when stuff comes up. This way you start a habit of LOOKING for yourself instead of waiting for me to point it out for you. You will need this habit of LOOKING after ‘gating’!

So, let’s breakdown ‘resistance’

The label ‘resistance’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of resistance
The thoughts about resistance are AE of thought and not the AE of resistance
The sensation labelled ‘resistance’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of resistance
The image labelled ‘me’/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of resistance.

So, can thought know anything about resistance or resist anything?
Does colour know anything about resistance and can colour resist anything?
Does sensation know anything about resistance, and can sensation resist anything?

SO, WHAT CAN POSSIBLY BE ‘RESISTING’? THOUGHT, COLOUR AND SENSATION KNOW NOTHING ABOUT RESISTANCE AND CANNOT RESIST ANYTHING…SO THE STORY ABOUT ‘SOMEONE RESISTING’ IS JUST THAT….STORY. WHAT IS ACTUALLY APPEARING IS LABEL + SENSATION + COLOUR + STORY (THOUGHTS) ABOUT RESISTANCE.
IS THIS CLEAR?

Where does thought end and taste begin? Where does taste end and sound begin? Where does sound end and smell begin?

I don't see an ending or beginning to these either.

GREAT…SO ARE THEY SEPARATE EXPERIENCES OR ARE THEY JUST EXPERIENCE WHICH THOUGHT LABELS AS SEPARATE ‘THINGS’ IE SOUND ,SENSATION, TASTE, SMELL, COLOUR, THOUGHT?

Is there sound and content?
Is there thought and content?
Is there sensation and content?
Is there colour and content?
Is there taste and content?
Is there smell and content?

I don't really understand these questions. I think the answers are all no.

IS THERE SOUND AND THE CONTENT OF THE SOUND?
WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A SOUND?

IS THERE TASTE AND THE CONTENT OF THE TASTE?
WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A TASTE?

IS THERE SMELL AND THE CONTENT OF THE SMELL?
WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A SMELL?

IS THERE SENSATION AND THE CONTENT OF THE SENSATION?
WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A SENSATION?

IS THERE COLOUR AND THE CONTENT OF THE COLOUR?
WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A COLOUR?

What does the label ‘experience’ actually point to?

The five senses plus thought

WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT HAS 5 SENSES AND THOUGHT?

You would have to be a person to have 5 senses and to think!

Experience = WHAT IS/THIS/Awareness/Consciousness/God/Knowing/the Dream/Life (whatever term you use). All these words are one and the same…they are all point to experience itself. And experience appears as coloursoundthoughtsmelltastesensation, but is none of those ‘things’. It is thought that divides experience into these categories. Without label and thoughts…all there is, is experience aka THIS.

Let’s look at a tv remote. Thought labels colour as tv remote

So ignore the label ‘tv remote’ and you are left with the colour ‘black’.
Ignore the label ‘black’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’.
Ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with?

Nothing

There is no ‘thing’ but that doesn’t mean there is nothing..what is there is experience appearing as ‘nothing’ But it is not empty! There is no such thing as ‘emptiness’. All things are inherently empty of content, but they are not empty of experience itself! Experience is every ‘thing’ and yet no ‘thing’. Experience is the doughnut and the so-called 'hole' in the doughnut! Experience is sound and is also appearing as silence. Experience appears as light, as well as darkness. There is no where, where experience is not!

What is the ae of ‘body’? What is the ae of ‘hand’??

Thought plus sensation plus color.

Okay…so now look at this again.

If we use the example of choosing a hand to raise…for a decision to be made that means:

1. that there must be a someone or something, and
2. this someone/something is thinking
3. and this someone/something created and specifically chose which thoughts to think in the moment
4. and this someone/something then made a choice based on the decision made via thinking which hand and when to raise it.
5. and through that choice, the thought chosen (eg raise right hand) was the catalyst that made the right hand raise (which is cause and effect = time)
6. and last but not least, that there are hands that can be raised!

IS THIS CLEAR?

So then if you cannot find a chooser/decider…how can you possibly find a ‘me’!?

I can't find a me.

SO, IS IT CLEAR, (no matter if the clarity comes and goes at this moment), THAT THERE IS NO ‘ME’ AND NEVER HAS BEEN…ALL IT IS IS STORY ABOUT EXPERIENCE APPEARING AS COLOUR + SENSATION + THOUGHT?

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,

Could you say more about that term you used-- "gating?"

So, can thought know anything about resistance or resist anything? NO
Does colour know anything about resistance and can colour resist anything? NO
Does sensation know anything about resistance, and can sensation resist anything? NO

SO, WHAT CAN POSSIBLY BE ‘RESISTING’? THOUGHT, COLOUR AND SENSATION KNOW NOTHING ABOUT RESISTANCE AND CANNOT RESIST ANYTHING…SO THE STORY ABOUT ‘SOMEONE RESISTING’ IS JUST THAT….STORY. WHAT IS ACTUALLY APPEARING IS LABEL + SENSATION + COLOUR + STORY (THOUGHTS) ABOUT RESISTANCE.
IS THIS CLEAR?

yes


GREAT…SO ARE THEY SEPARATE EXPERIENCES OR ARE THEY JUST EXPERIENCE WHICH THOUGHT LABELS AS SEPARATE ‘THINGS’ IE SOUND ,SENSATION, TASTE, SMELL, COLOUR, THOUGHT?

Thought has labeled them as separate things.


IS THERE SOUND AND THE CONTENT OF THE SOUND?
No

WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A SOUND?
No such thing.

IS THERE TASTE AND THE CONTENT OF THE TASTE?
WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A TASTE?
No such thing.

IS THERE SMELL AND THE CONTENT OF THE SMELL?
WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A SMELL?
No such thing.

IS THERE SENSATION AND THE CONTENT OF THE SENSATION?
WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A SENSATION?
No such thing.

IS THERE COLOUR AND THE CONTENT OF THE COLOUR?
WHAT IS THE CONTENT OF A COLOUR?
No such thing.


WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT HAS 5 SENSES AND THOUGHT?
As you say, it would be a person.


If we use the example of choosing a hand to raise…for a decision to be made that means:

1. that there must be a someone or something, and
2. this someone/something is thinking
3. and this someone/something created and specifically chose which thoughts to think in the moment
4. and this someone/something then made a choice based on the decision made via thinking which hand and when to raise it.
5. and through that choice, the thought chosen (eg raise right hand) was the catalyst that made the right hand raise (which is cause and effect = time)
6. and last but not least, that there are hands that can be raised!

IS THIS CLEAR?

Yes


SO, IS IT CLEAR, (no matter if the clarity comes and goes at this moment), THAT THERE IS NO ‘ME’ AND NEVER HAS BEEN…ALL IT IS IS STORY ABOUT EXPERIENCE APPEARING AS COLOUR + SENSATION + THOUGHT?

Yes, it is clear.

love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn,

Could you say more about that term you used-- "gating?"

‘Gating’ is just a term used by LU to say that a person has seen through the illusory separate self.

Great…so are they separate experiences or are they just experience which thought labels as separate ‘things’ ie sound ,sensation, taste, smell, colour, thought?

Thought has labeled them as separate things.

SO, EVEN THOUGH THOUGHT SAYS THAT SOUND IS DIFFERENT TO TASTE AND TASTE IS DIFFERENT TO SMELL AND THOUGHT IS DIFFERENT TO SENSATION. ARE THEY DIFFERENT? OR ARE THEY ALL ‘MADE FROM’ THE SAME SUBSTANCE WHICH THOUGHT THEN LABELS AS DIFFERENT?

So, is it clear, (no matter if the clarity comes and goes at this moment), that there is no ‘me’ and never has been…all it is is story about experience appearing as colour + sensation + thought?

Yes, it is clear.

SO YOU ARE 100% CLEAR THAT THERE IS NO ‘SEPARATE SELF?

IS THERE ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT SURE ABOUT, THAT YOU WOULD LIKE FOR US TO LOOK AT MORE? FROM WHEN YOU BEGAN THE EXPLORATION BACK IN OCTOBER LAST YEAR, TO NOW, DO YOU FEEL THAT THINGS HAVE CHANGED? HAS THE SEEKING DIMINISHED? OR ARE THINGS STILL THE SAME NOW AS THEY WERE BACK THEN? YOU CAME TO LU TO SEE THROUGH THE ILLUSORY SELF…DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE DONE THAT?

Yes, there will still be doubts and confusion that will arise..that is normal. LOOKING must still continue after seeing through the illusory self. I think I have already said that this realisation is just one of many, albeit the main one. The idea of being a person will not disappear, that story has always appeared to no one…because there was never a separate self to begin with.


Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,

SO, EVEN THOUGH THOUGHT SAYS THAT SOUND IS DIFFERENT TO TASTE AND TASTE IS DIFFERENT TO SMELL AND THOUGHT IS DIFFERENT TO SENSATION. ARE THEY DIFFERENT? OR ARE THEY ALL ‘MADE FROM’ THE SAME SUBSTANCE WHICH THOUGHT THEN LABELS AS DIFFERENT?

They are all made from the same substance.


SO YOU ARE 100% CLEAR THAT THERE IS NO ‘SEPARATE SELF?
When I look, I don't see a self.

IS THERE ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT SURE ABOUT, THAT YOU WOULD LIKE FOR US TO LOOK AT MORE? FROM WHEN YOU BEGAN THE EXPLORATION BACK IN OCTOBER LAST YEAR, TO NOW, DO YOU FEEL THAT THINGS HAVE CHANGED? HAS THE SEEKING DIMINISHED? OR ARE THINGS STILL THE SAME NOW AS THEY WERE BACK THEN? YOU CAME TO LU TO SEE THROUGH THE ILLUSORY SELF…DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE DONE THAT?

The seeking hasn't diminished. I feel pretty much the way I did when I started this process. Which is not to say that what you've been pointing to hasn't penetrated. It most certainly has. At times I get a sense of the radical understandings that you're pointing to. I'm most grateful for that.
If you're willing, I'd like to repeat the process again, though this time more slowly. The pace has been fast for me-- too fast to absorb what I see. Does that make sense?

love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hey Carolyn,

The seeking hasn't diminished. I feel pretty much the way I did when I started this process. Which is not to say that what you've been pointing to hasn't penetrated. It most certainly has. At times I get a sense of the radical understandings that you're pointing to. I'm most grateful for that.
If you're willing, I'd like to repeat the process again, though this time more slowly. The pace has been fast for me-- too fast to absorb what I see. Does that make sense?

Yes...so what I suggest is that you go back to the beginning where you are I started this exploration together and re-do all the exercises. If questions arise while reading or doing the exercises...write them down...and then what I suggest is that you post those questions that day...wait for my response and once all that has cleared...continue on with re-reading the rest of your thread and doing the exercises as you come upon them.

Your thread with me begins here:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... 95#p200851

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

That sounds like a plan, Kay. Thank you.

[forgetmenot]

Excellent...so take your time re-reading and take your time redoing the exercises. Really LOOK when doing the exercises so you get to see what is pointed to.

Love, Kay
xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay
I'm going to print out the conversation and make a little book. That way I'll have the material in a different format. It's not just the exercises that matter to me but also your wondeful questions.
Love
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hey Carolyn...that's a great idea. I find paper is more relaxing to read from than the computer screen, and looking at all the questions again is terrific! If I haven't heard from you in a few days, I will send a quick post to see how you are going. And you can also just send a quick post and let me know how you are going, or if you get further insights etc.

Love, Kay
Xx

[Prahathit]

Hi Kay,
I just had a block of time to cut everything out of the forum. I pasted it into a Word doc. It is not a "little" book! I only copied your side of the conversation and it comes to 75 pages and almost 20,000 words. We've taken quite a journey together.
I'll get it printed up and will begin work.
Thanks for standing by.
love,
Carolyn

[forgetmenot]

Hi Carolyn....I had a laugh...wow 75 pages and over 20,000 words, sound like a mini bible ;) Thank you for taking the journey with me...is has been and is a privilege, and I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Love, Kay
xx