Feeling Trapped in the I thought

[SundanceMuc]

Hello Stacy,

How is the movement controlled?

If i don’t control it through a thought (like"do it slower”), there is only the movement - no mind involved.

Does a thought control it?

In the movement there is no thought control.
I recognized a thought to start & to stop the exercise.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

In the movement i cant locate any controller, but there is a controller/ a thought when to start & when to stop.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

There was no decision made, only doing.

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Probably the habit/ predisposition. I am a right-hander, so the right hand is my preferential hand.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No i can't.

Love,
Sundance

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Sundance,

but there is a controller/ a thought when to start & when to stop.

Is there? Please explain exactly how thought does this. LOOK carefully for the mechanism.

Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

Is there? Please explain exactly how thought does this. LOOK carefully for the mechanism

.
To start there was a thought "Let's do it" or "Let's do it again" and i stretched my arm out and began the exercise.
For the stopping may not. Found no clear "stop" thought this time. I recogniced a kind of tiredness in my arm and seconds later i stopped doing it.

[Anastacia42]

Sure. a thought occurred. But

1. Did it cause anything? If so, exactly how? Did something reach out & grab your arm to make it move?

2. And look very very carefully. Which came first? The movement or the thought?

Really LOOK. Don't just believe what a thought says or assume anything. LOOK with your eyes.

Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

1. Did it cause anything? If so, exactly how? Did something reach out & grab your arm to make it move?

I did that experiment more than 20 times, but I yet don't really know. Sometimes i see at first a thought and then the movement. What means for me, that the thought was the cause to start. But i see myself also doing the movement without a thought before.
Of course nothing reached out and grabbed my hand.

2. And look very very carefully. Which came first? The movement or the thought?

I looked very carefully, but I can't really give an answer to that question. This happens so fast and the more i do the experiment, the more it confuses me.

Sorry, i am not getting anywhere with this.

[Anastacia42]

I hate to tell you the answer, because it's much more effective if you see it yourself, but the movement comes first and then thought - always.

There's a book called "Free Will" by Sam Harris, which might be helpful It gives you the neuroscience of this.

Or The Mind's Past by Michael Gazzaniga.

Or On Being Certain by Burton.

It's very clear when they hook you up to machines that measure brain waves when the decision is made. This isn't theory. It is measurable.

Do you want to look into those?

Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

Hi Stacy,
It's not like i wouldn't know about the fmri tests. They were able to see in the brain activity that the decision was made long before the thought came up.
But i cant see it clearly in that hand flipping experiment (which i also have done before).
Love,
Sundance

[Anastacia42]

Exactly.

Seeing it with your own eyes has an impact that just thinking or reading does not have. It can help you with the similar process of SEEING there's no separate "self."

You cannot believe your thinking.



Let's look at this some more:

Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Loving

[SundanceMuc]

Hello Stacy,
I have massive problems with the website of LU. I tried a 100 times to open it. I wanted to send my answers but this was not possible.
Hopefully you get this message.
Do you have the same problems?
I ve noch idea what's up.

Love,
Sundance

[SundanceMuc]

Hi Stacy,
Hopefully you get this message too.
I dort quoted the questions bec i did it 5 times and then my message wasn't sent.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?
If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

I didn't really choose. The qualities appeared instantly by themself.
The preferences popped up by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No, i didn't choose to wait and count to 5.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No, I didn't experienced a faculty or else doing the choosing.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No, I experienced nothing like this. There was no chooser. I was very keen to drink my hot coffee, there was no thinking or choosing process.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

A feeling is a body sensation and comes after a thought. A feeling can't choose.

Love,
Sundance

[Anastacia42]

Every now and then our website is attacked by bots. It overloads the system and we cannot post. I mentioned that in my very first post. That seems to be going on right now and they're working on it.

I really really prefer to see the Quote function used. I do this on my phone and it's very hard to read without it.

[Anastacia42]

Are you very clear that you did no choosing in either pointer? Not even choosing to start or stop?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

You mentioned not wanting to do this alone. Besides me, there are groups and a few videos you can use.



There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:

Thursday Meetings.

Hi Guys,

we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.

Here is an invitation for you:

Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on youtube.

To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com

You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.

Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________

Meet up with vince (For LU seekers & guides)

Monday August 14 (get the current dates from Vince)

Sydney (est) Australia. 6 am right now
Every 2 weeks after that.

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09

Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

Let him know if you want email reminders.
vinceschubert@gmail.com

__________________________________________________

Ilona's Meetings

Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )

To register send Ilona an email to

admin@ilonaciunaite.com

Looking forward :)


__________________________________________________

(videos)

Hi everyone.

Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.

https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4

Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate

Ilona

Write to them for the next meeting.

For Fetters:

Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks. I can invite you to that group on Facebook where the notices are posted. What is your FB name?

There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.

And Kevin Shinilac has https://www.simplytheseen.com/ but I don't think he is guiding any more, although there are instructions on his site.

Maybe some of that will help.

Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

Hello Stacy,
Unfortunately i am not very tech-savvy. But now it seems to be no problem again to load the webside.

Are you very clear that you did no choosing in either pointer? Not even choosing to start or stop?

Yes, it's amazing - in this experiment it was very clear for me.

I was in contact with Todd from The Awakening Curriculum. He invited me to a discord group and offered me also a pok group & a monthly fetter work group. I think for this it would be better to have seen through the illusion of self. He knows that I am now LU guided.

In The Awakening Curriculum i heard from Vince's sunday group. A group on monday would be much better for me, as i am often on hikes at the weekend.
I'll check if the group is possible with my timezone.

And i'll take a look at the other groups too.

Thanks for the information about that groups!

Love,
Sundance

[Anastacia42]

You are welcome.

It is true that I usually suggest groups after the first fetter drops, but it's up to you.

How does it FEEL to see there is no chooser?

Loving