Jen seeking guidance

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

Thanks for checking in. Sorry late response - had been caught up with a retreat.

Yes. the watcher isn’t real—just another flavor of thought. And you didn’t see it. Seeing happened. No one behind the seeing. No one behind the fear, either. Just patterns firing off, grasping for a center that isn’t there.

Yea it’s so interesting. Just because seeing is happening, it’s so automatically translated as there must be an agent seeing. Maybe it’s like we have the seeing, hearing, feeling etc. senses, but because further processing happens, and thoughts and feelings come from that, we feel like there’s a separate entity doing the integration. Is it fair to say there might be sensory inputs and a brain integrating that and spitting out thoughts etc. and that’s not contradictory to the view here, but there’s just no agent or agency involved in that process?

Now stay right here. Feel that surge—the tension in the head, the drop in the belly, the tightness in the throat.
Let it fully be felt without trying to know it, fix it, or outwait it. Not as a strategy to get it to go away, but with a welcoming attitude to what is just present. :)

Again:
Can you find a center in the body? Not a thought about one— I mean the actual, felt location of a self. Search right now.

Nope, no location other than a sensation with a thought label of self. Does that label also tend to drop over time? Or just clearer recognition that it’s just a label?

It is not something new, there has already always been no controller.

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.
Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

this metaphor was really helpful! I think I’m conflating with a thought of “this is the right decision” or “ i want this” , which is a result of just an amoeba-like “which is more rewarding?” System, is being conflated as a decision maker rather than just accurate labeling of what the amoeba felt was more pleasure and less pain. I think it’s helpful to see it as labeling and to see nothing actually changes in my life given the same reward pain weighing system continues to operate, but just double checking there isn’t an issue to see it this way?
The stream isn’t choosing its directions. For is it a separate entity.. the self/body feels like an entity with more movement and maybe more at stake because the degrading of it leads to presumed loss of access to experience. But from a top down view of the stream metaphor, then maybe not so separate and more just different flavors of what’s overall just happening? The stream definitely doesn’t seem separate from the water, so there’s no same entity that continues moment to moment.. Is the water kind of like awareness?

1. Can you find anywhere where Jen autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No, I can’t find anything that isn’t just conditioned

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

I can’t find it here either

3. Can anything be found for which Jen is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

No, I can’t find it. It’s confusing to me why we came to have this illusion though. Like my mind wonders if there was an evolutionary reason and something will be missing from my survival instincts if i drop the idea that I’m in control

4. Finally, look directly, see, hear, smell, taste, touch for it: Where is the one who’s afraid of losing control?

It’s just the thought that there’ll be a consequence and a feeling of fear!

Every one of these inquiries you’ve given me helps so much - much gratitude!

[graceabounds]

Hi! Welcome back. :)

interesting. Just because seeing is happening, it’s so automatically translated as there must be an agent seeing. Maybe it’s like we have the seeing, hearing, feeling etc. senses, but because further processing happens, and thoughts and feelings come from that, we feel like there’s a separate entity doing the integration

Yes. Exactly that. “The watcher” is just another trick. Just another character in the play of thought pretending to be backstage, running things. But when the curtain gets yanked back… nothing. No wizard. No one home.

You said it beautifully—there feels like a processor, an integrator, because the system reacts and maps and narrates, and that gets misinterpreted as a “me.” But the interpretation is after the fact. It’s commentary. Like a sportscaster announcing a goal that already happened. No one scores from the commentary booth!

And yes—perfectly fair: there can be input, and there can be integration, and it still doesn’t imply agency. That’s the trap, right? We imagine that because something is happening, there must be a doer of it. But try this—right now:
Where is the doer of this moment? Not the thought about a doer. Not the memory of “you.” Not a story of decisions. In actual experience, is there a controller? A core?

Pause. Feel. Let the tension answer.
There’s the tightness. The heat in the chest. The flicker behind the eyes. The clutch in the gut.
But is that a self—or just sensation?

Does that label also tend to drop over time? Or just clearer recognition that it’s just a label?

And yes, over time the label drops. Or rather—gets seen for what it already is: a habit. A loop.

As for the stream metaphor... The stream flows, twists, dives, slows, crashes—all depending on the terrain, the rain, the moment. Not once does it pause and say, “I chose that rock.” And yet… here we are. Living. Moving. Making “choices.” Just like the stream moves “around” a bend. Of course it moves—it has no option. The terrain shapes the path. The path isn’t owned.

think I’m conflating with a thought of “this is the right decision” or “ i want this” , which is a result of just an amoeba-like “which is more rewarding?” System, is being conflated as a decision maker rather than just accurate labeling of what the amoeba felt was more pleasure and less pain

Slow it way down.
Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a ‘good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behavior rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

Is the water kind of like awareness?

Feel what’s asking this. That little flicker—trying to grab a foothold again. Trying to understand. To turn this into something beautiful and conceptual and safe. So the answer is no, it isn’t if that idea gives ‘you’ something to hold on to. ;)

Ask again:
Where is Jen choosing anything?

Don’t answer conceptually. Point to the chooser in this moment.

Then think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appears?

Like my mind wonders if there was an evolutionary reason and something will be missing from my survival instincts if i drop the idea that I’m in control

Nothing to do but try! Get in the passenger seat for a day… see what happens. Does the body still move? Feed itself? Do things still happen or does the world stop without the illusion of the doer that never existed?

:)
-Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

Yes. Exactly that. “The watcher” is just another trick. Just another character in the play of thought pretending to be backstage, running things. But when the curtain gets yanked back… nothing. No wizard. No one home.

You said it beautifully—there feels like a processor, an integrator, because the system reacts and maps and narrates, and that gets misinterpreted as a “me.” But the interpretation is after the fact. It’s commentary. Like a sportscaster announcing a goal that already happened. No one scores from the commentary booth!

I’m noticing that watcher is super hard to stay seeing through. Cuz there’s awareness and there’s the hub where most of input feels like it’s around (my body), so the mind goes okay that’s the center that gives awareness that perspective. If I search for a watcher though, I can’t find it, I thought I could find a see-er of the visual field for a moment, but I also can’t find that. what a weird reality haha

And yes—perfectly fair: there can be input, and there can be integration, and it still doesn’t imply agency. That’s the trap, right? We imagine that because something is happening, there must be a doer of it. But try this—right now:
Where is the doer of this moment? Not the thought about a doer. Not the memory of “you.” Not a story of decisions. In actual experience, is there a controller? A core?

Pause. Feel. Let the tension answer.
There’s the tightness. The heat in the chest. The flicker behind the eyes. The clutch in the gut.
But is that a self—or just sensation?

Thanks! Going through this is so helpful. I did a a few times. Every time it’s easier to see it’s just sensation. The self-concept is so sneaky though, it keeps reconstituting itself.. I’m thinking of maybe keeping it as almost a meditation object and just having the sensations and the self label be something i’m aware of as much as I can, but.. is that another control issue?

Slow it way down.
Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a ‘good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behavior rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

I have a leaning and certain things I care about like health and taste etc., I feel like the thoughts do kind of point to these things I care about and I can kind of weigh out the decision with the thoughts, but I’m not choosing the thoughts and the thought isn’t directly controlling the behavior, more like tipping the scales in one direction or the other? Like thoughts seem to be part of the causes and conditions, does that seem right?

Feel what’s asking this. That little flicker—trying to grab a foothold again. Trying to understand. To turn this into something beautiful and conceptual and safe. So the answer is no, it isn’t if that idea gives ‘you’ something to hold on to. ;)

Thank you!! that’s a trap I keep falling into.. without concepts, the mind doesn’t believe there’s any way to as effectively navigate the world. It thinks it can definitely do better than a felt sense..

Ask again:
Where is Jen choosing anything?

Don’t answer conceptually. Point to the chooser in this moment.

I can’t find a chooser, but there does seem to be a point where an action is decided on and then it happens. Is that also an illusion?

Then think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appears?

I did this 3 times and got the same number each time haha. I did not know what number , I think it was just the most readily available in my mind number

Nothing to do but try! Get in the passenger seat for a day… see what happens. Does the body still move? Feed itself? Do things still happen or does the world stop without the illusion of the doer that never existed?

Been trying it. Initially it felt like great, it doesn’t things anyway, but then I started getting a bit confused when I’m in the drivers seat vs. the passenger seat. Because if even when I believe I’m choosing something, that’s just the belief I am and then the action, and everything is just here as it is without a self, then I’m like hmm what is even happening when I’m clinging or trying to get away from things? I’ve seen myself averting attention, or overfocusing attention, or tensing muscles, and i think we have some weird ability to make a story and then see the world that way? Do those seem about right? And those are just happenings too.. so in some ways they’re also just whatever is happening, but we want to decrease those because they happen to cause suffering, yea?

Thanks!

[graceabounds]

Beautiful.

There is a lot here which is becoming clear when looking, and also notice all the questions that are arising… the seeking for the answer. This ‘a-ha’ moment that is being sought will not come from anything the mind can logic out, figure out or understand. That perpetuates this whole charade. Stay with what is directly experienced.

I can’t find a chooser, but there does seem to be a point where an action is decided on and then it happens. Is that also an illusion?

Look closer. When exactly is that point? And who or what is locating it?

Don’t settle for “it seems like…” Stop there. Pause everything, and inquire:
Is the decision itself known—or is the awareness of the decision always retrospective?
(Like: “Ah, that was the decision.” But never: “I am making a decision now.”)

In the exact instant something “is decided,” where is the decider?
Not the commentary. Not the narrative about what happened. In direct sensation—where is the mechanism that initiates?

There is only happening. Movement. Inclination. Thought echoing after the event. This includes clinging, tensing, flinching, even seeking… just another ripple, not a sign of someone behind the ripple.

And those are just happenings too.. so in some ways they’re also just whatever is happening, but we want to decrease those because they happen to cause suffering, yea?

Who wants to decrease them? Aren’t the appearances just the appearances? Can the appearances possibly be changed? By what?

Also there’s no “we”…
There’s a learned habit of resisting discomfort. No one’s doing that. It’s just seen. The ‘suffering’ is in the thought of resistance to what simply is.

Look at the next thing your mind tries to do—interpret, grasp, manage, fix.
Watch the impulse arise. Don’t resist it.
Just see it—not from a watcher, but because it’s undeniable.

Where is the self in that motion?

Pause.
Feel the jaw tighten. The breath hitch. The wanting to know.
That’s the body reacting. That’s the nervous system.
But is there a self, anywhere, in any of it?

Answer only from right now.
Not a theory. Not a memory. Not even yesterday’s breakthrough. ;)

Much love,
Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

There is a lot here which is becoming clear when looking, and also notice all the questions that are arising… the seeking for the answer. This ‘a-ha’ moment that is being sought will not come from anything the mind can logic out, figure out or understand. That perpetuates this whole charade. Stay with what is directly experienced.

This is my lifelong habit haha. It perpetuates the whole charade cause it’s taking a thought as more than just a thought, as if it could capture these non-conceptual felt experiences, yea?

Look closer. When exactly is that point? And who or what is locating it?

Don’t settle for “it seems like…” Stop there. Pause everything, and inquire:
Is the decision itself known—or is the awareness of the decision always retrospective?
(Like: “Ah, that was the decision.” But never: “I am making a decision now.”)

My experience that I can access is: I have the sense of want and then if no thought comes up about why it’s not a good idea, the action happens. If there’s conflicting wants that both come up, then thought can weigh it in a direction and then at some point a green light is given to one of the options, and that feels like the point of “deciding” like “okay, do action”. It feels like I know a decision was made (though there’s no separate agent making the decision) before the action happens and that’s what seems like a decision point - is that also an illusion?

In the exact instant something “is decided,” where is the decider?
Not the commentary. Not the narrative about what happened. In direct sensation—where is the mechanism that initiates?

Hmm mechanism that initiates.. it’s like a want and an okayness with that want being acted on, and then the action happens

Who wants to decrease them? Aren’t the appearances just the appearances? Can the appearances possibly be changed? By what?

Also there’s no “we”…
There’s a learned habit of resisting discomfort. No one’s doing that. It’s just seen. The ‘suffering’ is in the thought of resistance to what simply is.

This was super helpful. The suffering itself is just another appearance, the suffering happens not because of the “suffering” , but because of the belief that it’s suffering and the linked aversion to it, almost? I’ve been wondering a lot what the appearances can be changed by. I guess in the felt sense it feels different when i avert my attention or tension comes and kind of covers it up, but maybe that’s not changing it but just impermanence and next moment is just different condition? Wondering if you could share more about how appearances can’t be changed?

Look at the next thing your mind tries to do—interpret, grasp, manage, fix.
Watch the impulse arise. Don’t resist it.
Just see it—not from a watcher, but because it’s undeniable.

Undeniable as in that’s just what’s happening and there’s no way to change it, you mean?

Where is the self in that motion?

Pause.
Feel the jaw tighten. The breath hitch. The wanting to know.
That’s the body reacting. That’s the nervous system.
But is there a self, anywhere, in any of it?

Answer only from right now.
Not a theory. Not a memory. Not even yesterday’s breakthrough. ;)

No self, just sadness whenever “I” see that. Less fear than before though, shifted more to sadness and maybe an aloneness, like a loss of a self to connect to or to connect to life with?

Much gratitude,
Jen

[graceabounds]

Hello Jen,

Sitting in a room, curtains closed, you wonder what the weather is like outside. You can think about it, look it up on the internet, watch the forecast on TV, call your mother and ask her - or you can simply open the curtains and have a look…

So what has been happening here is a lot of calling up and asking, a lot of forecasting and wondering… and not so much looking.

Every time there is a question that comes, STOP. You’re in your habit of identifying with thoughts again. In direct experience there is also no “it feels like” or “it seems like”… it just is or isn’t. The one who needs to know IS the illusion and that illusion ran unchecked through most of this last message.

Except here:

No self, just sadness whenever “I” see that. Less fear than before though, shifted more to sadness and maybe an aloneness, like a loss of a self to connect to or to connect to life with?

This was direct experience until it veered off into thought starting around the word “maybe” there at the end.

So, I am reining this runaway horse in. No more questions. No more interpretation.

Right now, without moving, without thinking—
Just feel the sadness.

Not “I feel sad.”
Just: Sadness.

Does it belong to anyone? Yes or No?


You want to know if that “decision point” is an illusion?
Then watch something decide itself before you can describe it.

Try this:
Sit still.
Raise one finger—but not until it lifts itself.
Watch.
Don’t interfere.

Does anything make the choice? Or does the action just happen? Choose one. No hedging.


And since I am leaving very little room here for much to reply to, here is another exercise, which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’
So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, color and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.

Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts.
Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination.

Much (tough) love,
Becca

[Jenness]

Every time there is a question that comes, STOP. You’re in your habit of identifying with thoughts again. In direct experience there is also no “it feels like” or “it seems like”… it just is or isn’t. The one who needs to know IS the illusion and that illusion ran unchecked through most of this last message.

Helpful, thanks! Every time I type out something in response, it’s a concept, so I’ll just leave it.

Right now, without moving, without thinking—
Just feel the sadness.

Not “I feel sad.”
Just: Sadness.

Does it belong to anyone? Yes or No?

No

You want to know if that “decision point” is an illusion?
Then watch something decide itself before you can describe it.

Try this:
Sit still.
Raise one finger—but not until it lifts itself.
Watch.
Don’t interfere.

Does anything make the choice? Or does the action just happen? Choose one. No hedging.

Nothing makes the choice but there’s a want, an allowing of that want to be acted upon, then the action

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.

Can you see this?

Yes!

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts.
Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination.

I’ve been doing this, but I think it’s hard for me to not see thoughts as useful for pointing me in the right direction towards liberation even if they aren’t real in what’s happening right now.. I’m going to keep doing this one - it feels like it needs more practice! I’ll be on a trip and back in 2 weeks. Will keep this in mind on trip and report back after.

Thank you for your help (and patience with my brain..)!
Jen

[graceabounds]

Hello Jen,

I’ve been doing this, but I think it’s hard for me to not see thoughts as useful for pointing me in the right direction towards liberation even if they aren’t real in what’s happening right now.. I’m going to keep doing this one - it feels like it needs more practice!

This idea that “thoughts help” is itself a thought. Another story in the flow. And this story maintains the seeker — the one who needs to use thought to get somewhere.

What happens if you drop all using of thought — and let THIS, exactly as it is, be fully enough?
No practice, no more “getting there.” This, as it is. :)

Have a nice trip!

Becca

[Jenness]

Mmm okay that felt like the message got through and hit. I’m going to keep coming back to that these next two weeks. Catch you after! Thank you!

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

Sorry for the delay. This thoughts piece really helped! There’s a few stories that keep rehashing. The seeker story, that there’s something I need to get to be happy. Then the story of the watcher watching that story. When the story of the watcher isn’t back by my experience, then there’s wonder at how stuff is here. Experience is still centered though, so there’s a belief I’m the center of the universe. That one brings up resistance and fear. Also, I keep falling for and believing the thoughts anyway, especially when socializing. I’d like that to stop but I’m a bit less attached than before. Is there something I’m missing?

Warmly,
Jen

[graceabounds]

Hello Jen,

You’re not missing anything. That sense of “missing” is the seeker. The belief that “I” am the center of experience is the same one who wants that belief to go away. You see?

Experience is still centered though, so there’s a belief I’m the center of the universe. That one brings up resistance and fear.

OK, now notice that “centered” is just another story ABOUT experience. Where’s the center? Try to point to it without using thoughts. Try right now.

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie. Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit. Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where “Jen” is located.
Touch the exact location of Jen.

Answer these questions:
Were you able to find and feel Jen in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified Jen? (If any…)

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

Also, I keep falling for and believing the thoughts anyway, especially when socializing. I’d like that to stop but I’m a bit less attached than before.

What does it feel like when “you” fall for the thoughts? Get specific. Physical sensation. Where? How intense?

What does it feel like to be “a bit less attached”? Don’t describe the thought, describe the bodily shift.

Then: is there a separate ‘you’ managing any of this? Can you find the one who wants thoughts to stop?

-Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

You’re not missing anything. That sense of “missing” is the seeker. The belief that “I” am the center of experience is the same one who wants that belief to go away. You see?

Yes! Wow, such a weird thing every time I see it..why’s it so tricky haha

OK, now notice that “centered” is just another story ABOUT experience. Where’s the center? Try to point to it without using thoughts. Try right now.

There feels like a density of sensations around my body that correlates with more of my attention being centered there, but I can’t say there’s a center without thoughts. If i pull attention more outwards instead of in body, there’s fear, and the thought that I’ll neglect my own wants and needs or lose ability to protect myself. If I pour a ton of attention into both where my body is as well outside, my mind kind of stops being able to function, can’t really think clearly, like too much stimulation, that also comes with some fear but less than the previous. And when I think about which one i should do, and see that it’s still a seeker story, and in reality there’s not much of a difference between any of these “configurations” of reality ,then a sadness comes up , with thoughts around inability to change things and make things better and get the something I’m seeking and feel like I need from life, which is some kind of undoubtably worth or something

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie. Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit. Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where “Jen” is located.
Touch the exact location of Jen.

Answer these questions:
Were you able to find and feel Jen in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified Jen? (If any…)

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

Pointed towards head, but it was just a tension, so then couldn’t find anything to point to that wasn’t just a tension. Try to feel along the top and back of my head and temples and then back of my chest and those were just those corresponding body parts. Tried to imagine what’s deeper inside my head that i can’t touch and point to that, and there’s actually nothing there? The tension isn’t even there, it’s more on the surface of the head, though that might be influenced by how i think about the anatomy of the head and brain, I’ve realized I can’t trust my direct experience necessarily because thoughts I believe in influence where i think things are , how big they are etc.

What does it feel like when “you” fall for the thoughts? Get specific. Physical sensation. Where? How intense?

this was difficult. Hard for me to see clearly, and that’s the main sensation, a foggyness and a can’t see/sense/feel part of the awareness space. Attention feels locked onto the thought and the rest of the world isn’t there. But i can’t see it very clearly , cause I can only get a glimpse of it from memory, because when it’s happening, I’m not aware and so not observing it. Also tension in my head comes with it, and a strong wanting that’s a movement in the chest area ,and a belief that it’ll get me happiness or away from unhappiness, and then a sadness when I loosen up the tension. I don’t really get it. It’s like the world is a different world as I believe the thought, like I believe a sensation is a problem and it feels bad , I can’t see what’s happening that allows that to happen - that’s something I’ll be able to see if I just keep looking?

What does it feel like to be “a bit less attached”? Don’t describe the thought, describe the bodily shift.

There’s more time where the thoughts come and go more just like a sound comes and goes ,without some attention being focused on it and then attention defocuses pretty soon. Or sometimes it catches attention and there’s tension and then there’s like a thought of oh that’s a thought , and then attention defocuses and tension lessons a bit. Is narrowing attention a bodily shift? Or is that still a thought of some sort? So all I’ve been able to catch in the body is attention and tension, but it feels like i’m missing seeing something cause it looks foggy

Then: is there a separate ‘you’ managing any of this? Can you find the one who wants thoughts to stop?

There isn’t a separate me I can find, and I can’t find the one who wants to stop getting caught by thoughts, i just find a thought that if I stop getting caught, I’ll be happy. It seems to match the evidence though, that when I’m caught it doesn’t feel good. Do thoughts have no reality at all or can they be a general prediction model that’s just not super accurate?

Sorry for taking so long and still not totally getting it..things feel better than it did at the beginning though!

[graceabounds]

Hello Jen,

There was a lot to work with in your message. So I am giving you a lot back. Feel free to send multiple replies if one chunk of time to work on the whole thing is elusive, a bit of time each day looking would be good right now.

If i pull attention more outwards instead of in body, there’s fear, and the thought that I’ll neglect my own wants and needs or lose ability to protect myself

Is outside ‘safe’?
How does the fear manifest specifically? What is felt emotionally, and in the body?

Where exactly is that fear felt? Describe the texture of it. Is it buzzing, aching, heavy, stabbing, floating? What’s its shape? Does it move? Can it be held without trying to make it go away?

Let’s keep this visceral. Don’t give me another summary of how you think this is working. Drop all theory.

I’ve realized I can’t trust my direct experience necessarily because thoughts I believe in influence where i think things are , how big they are etc

Ah. So let’s go back to seeing through thoughts then.

The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience.

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a while.Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it. Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:
Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

The questions are really just there for you to consider as you do the exercise, I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.

then a sadness comes up , with thoughts around inability to change things and make things better and get the something I’m seeking and feel like I need from life, which is some kind of undoubtably worth or something

Yes. Beautifully put. But now feel it. Where is that sadness? Don’t tell me “I feel sad.” SHOW me the sadness. Where is it in the body? How do you know it’s sadness? Is it possible to feel the raw data of it without calling it sad?

Hold it.

Don’t fix it. Don’t understand it. Just let it be as it is without any reason, label, or improvement.

Also tension in my head comes with it, and a strong wanting that’s a movement in the chest area ,and a belief that it’ll get me happiness or away from unhappiness, and then a sadness when I loosen up the tension.

What is the tension in the head and the movement in the chest protecting? Investigate each separately. Go into them. Sit in them for some time. Look around them and behind them. Get familiar with their edges. Without judgement or pushing away, just give them space to be. Ask them what they want to communicate (and be attentive to an answer that may not come in words, but sometimes images, memory, or a sudden knowing).

Do thoughts have no reality at all or can they be a general prediction model that’s just not super accurate?

Thoughts are like weather. They exist as phenomena. But they don’t point to truth. They just form conditioned loops based on memory, fear, desire, and habit. They’re not bad or wrong. They’re just not you.

When you wrote “It’s like the world is a different world as I believe the thought…” This is gold.

Go into that difference.

Next time a thought comes up and you get caught, do not try to stop it. Instead, observe: what exactly snaps into place when the thought is believed? What bodily shift happens the moment it turns from a sound into “my reality”?

That shift is where “selfing” lives. That’s the actual illusion. Not the thought, but the embodied identification.


You’re not late. You’re not behind. You’re exactly here.
Now stay with the fire.

-Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

The spoon exercise helped a lot and then I’ve just been doing a lot of looking to see if I can see it in daily life.

Is outside ‘safe’?
How does the fear manifest specifically? What is felt emotionally, and in the body?

Where exactly is that fear felt? Describe the texture of it. Is it buzzing, aching, heavy, stabbing, floating? What’s its shape? Does it move? Can it be held without trying to make it go away?

Let’s keep this visceral. Don’t give me another summary of how you think this is working. Drop all theory.

It’s in my shoulders and belly and pelvis/psoas as tensions , and when attention is pulled more into those areas to see what “tension” really feels like, I can’t find solidity..seems like that’s a fake spoon?? The sensations are a warmth and there feels to be a movement but I can’t tell how they’re moving, but it doesn’t feel static. Once the solidity can’t be seen , then there does start to be a movement up that feels like a diffuse liquid or wind or something from the belly to the chest and throat and head and then they stopped at the tensions that felt solid again in the head once i took attention off the tensions, and then when attention back on the tension, then the “stuff” that moved up merges with the softened tension. But then there’s stronger tension on the most outer layer of my head/scalp like almost holding it in. Those don’t loosen up as readily, more feels like little spots of it loosen at a time, and some of that diffuse cloud leaks out into the air

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:
Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

The spoon exercise helped me get a feel for the mind created reality which has a similar feel as when I’m caught in a thought in day to day life. It’s kind of a hazy not fully there feeling to it, which clears when I look at it and I can’t find it anymore.

The “me” has the same hazy feeling, but comes with a lot of fear when seen through, and it comes right back. Just keep sitting with the sensations of fear and that’ll make it less sticky?

the sadness and fear sensations are sticky and I’m not getting a clear look, so will keep looking and answer the rest of the questions after I get further
thanks!!

[graceabounds]

Hi!

The spoon exercise helped me get a feel for the mind created reality which has a similar feel as when I’m caught in a thought in day to day life. It’s kind of a hazy not fully there feeling to it, which clears when I look at it and I can’t find it anymore.

Great. So let’s develop that a bit more.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, color and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Just keep sitting with the sensations of fear and that’ll make it less sticky?

Not quite. Don’t wait for it to soften. Don’t make sitting with fear into a new strategy. That’s seeking again :)
… waiting for fear to go so you can finally “get it.”

Instead, let the fear stay.
Let it throb, burn, hum, buzz, whatever it does, feel it without chasing it away. Not just as a trick to dissolve it, but to see what it’s made of. Not even the label “fear,” but the actual ingredients. Tingling? Heat? Tightening?

Then notice what’s wrapping around it, the fog of interpretation: “I’m afraid,” “This is too much,” “Something bad is going to happen,” etc. Those aren’t part of the fear. That’s selfing.

Drop the story. Stay with the raw data.

Now close your eyes and look for the “me” that’s afraid. Not the fear. Not the sensations. The me.
Look carefully. Is there an entity? Is there a self in there?

What you’ll find is thought about a self. Imagery. Memory. “Felt sense.” But nothing solid. Just like the spoon.

Then ask: Is this fear happening to someone… or is it just fear appearing, no owner, no host?