2nd coming

[Elad]

Are you sure this belief is attached all the time or is that a belief in itself?

What is the evidence? Maybe really look and gather evidence for a day...

Also, is there a resistance of this experience of "I belief is there", whatever that experience actually is? If yes, what is that about? What is this resistance to that and maybe the desire for something "opposite" about?

Finally, maybe this passage from Kevin Schanilec's "Simply the Seen" comes to mind. Read it, reflect on it, in relation to your experience, see/feel what happens:

"Being clear on what it is you are looking for is the most important aspect of inquiry. The fetters approach is one way to be clear on this, in that it provides a guide to what (as opposed to who) is being sought at each step. For example, when looking for a separate “self” or ego as the first step, the inquiry is about finding that which seems to be the agent, controller and experiencer of all that is happening. While whatever it is can also then be labelled as an “ego” or “self”, and thus “me”, it is really a matter of looking for something, rather than someone.

Thereafter, what you are looking for is more obviously something, rather than someone, in that you will look for something that appears to be a source or cause of the push and pull of reactivity, the subjective pole or foundation of experience, and something that detects or perceives other “somethings”. Even when exploring the underlying sense of “I” or “me”, the inquiry is focused on something that gives rise to the sense of awareness or consciousness, or “experience” itself, which
is then labelled as “I”.

At each step, there can be a tendency to gradually shift from looking for something, and to start looking for someone (i.e., “me” or “I”): until the eighth fetter falls, there will always be that sense of "me" or "I". Until that time, just allow that there is what seems to be an indisputable sense of “I Am” and let it be, and notice if and when the inquiry starts to drift toward looking for someone rather than something."

[avva2]

Hi Elad

I have been looking at DE and I can't find the experiencer. There is no seer, no hearer, etc. When I ask the question, "Is there a seer/hearer/etc?", the answer is always silence. "Is there a sense of self here?" - silence. It is obvious by now that the body moves, thinks, speaks, experiences on its own.

I didn't understand your question about resistance.

Kevin writes that the I Am sense will stay until the 8th fetter. So what goes after the first fetter? The doer/thinker/experiencer - with a subtle I Am sense remaining?

[Elad]

Is it clear beyond ANY DOUBT whatsoever, that there is no doer/controller/decider/influencer/thinker/separate self?


How do you react to: I have absolutely no control over thoughts, attention, movement, action, will, intention, memory - and never had and never will?

I shared Kevins writing with the intention to support your differentiation, that yes, there can be a subtle underlying sense of "I am", while it is clear that there is no one there to think, act, decide, feel, be separate from anything, control anything.

The resistance questions aims for you to look at if in some way you are resisting and/or trying to change how things are for you now?

[avva2]

It is clear beyond any doubt that there is no-one controlling this body. No doer, no thinker, no experiencer. But there is no shift or change of any kind, so I continue with the inquity. There is a feeling that something is preventing the realization from really sinking in. Also, self-referential thoughts continue to arise. Something hasn't clicked yet - or is that just a belief too?

The statement you wrote feels true and there are no other feelings attached to it.

[Elad]

Hmmm, is there a frustration or any other feeling about that there is no shift or other feelings in response to seeing? Or is it completely fine like this?

Lets agree to not be in a hurry and look at this as long as its called for :)

[avva2]

Yes, there is frustration. It is a mild feeling - feelings here have become rather weak lately. The frustration is felt in the stomach area - it is "allowed" to be there.

I will continue the inquiry and will come back to you when there is something to report.

[Elad]

Sounds good!

Maybe this frustration and any other feelings around that can lead you to residual self beliefs to be seen through (and maybe "child parts" to be loved).

A related quesiton would be: How would you feel about it if you never have a shift and never have a strong feeling about it and that because of that several guides and other people will consider your "awakening" inauthentic?

Whatever feelings come up about that might bring to light shadow work stuff and self beliefs that can be met with love and inquired into...

Until next time!

[avva2]

Hi Elad

What is a shift anyway?

avva

[Elad]

Hi Elad

What is a shift anyway?

avva

I could read this with two different vibes, one is maybe inscure, trying to get more information to get more clarity, the other is relaxed and maybe even playful. And I am aware there could be other options. Please describe the vibe and intention this question comes with/from?

And please answer my last question.

[avva2]

The vibe is relaxed - just wanted to connect with you again, so I thought of this question.

There is clear seeing that there is no self - and that is enough. If no-one sees it as true awakening, would anyone mind?

There are thoughts in the head and sensations in the body. A thought might say, "I don't like it. I'm frustrated." So what?

[Elad]

Lovely! :D

Is there any experiential difference or difference in insight/understanding between now and when you graduated LU first time? If yes, what is?

Are there doubts at all about if there is a separate self and if it is clear?
Any questions?

[avva2]

Yes, it has sunk in deeper. There is nothing blocking it now.

The body goes around doing things on its own with a running commentary in the head. It has always done everything on its own. There has never been a doer or a thinker or an experiencer.

No questions.

Thank you Elad for your help.

[Elad]

Yes, it has sunk in deeper. There is nothing blocking it now.

The body goes around doing things on its own with a running commentary in the head. It has always done everything on its own. There has never been a doer or a thinker or an experiencer.

No questions.

Thank you Elad for your help.

Beautiful! Would you be up for answering the questions again and see if other guides have questions that might bring more clarity?

[Elad]

The final questions, that is.

[avva2]

All right.