Seeing what is

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NoUserFound
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby NoUserFound » Sat May 04, 2024 3:45 pm

"there's a sense of clarity even without reflection" That is KEY. What is that clarity and is that clarity ever not there? Just be curious about that.

That sense of clarity appears to be a characteristic of direct experience. However, I have a feeling that whatever I would write here would only distort/misrepresent this sense of clarity. The closest guess might be a lack of identification or lack of separation, but even those descriptions sound like a story…

On the flip side, I'm even less certain about what happens when I lack this sense of clarity. I would label it “ being lost in thought" (though this label is already a story) when clarity is absent. However, it seems impossible to replicate the experience of "being lost in thought" within direct experience because, by then, clarity has already returned. Could it be that the absence of clarity is just imagination?

1) During the next day: Take many short moments during the normal activities and relaxations of the day, where you let go of trying to understand anything or achieve anything or change anything, and just notice what is there pre-verbally. Just for a short moment, like even a split second, no trying to prolong or maintain anything. In those moments rest in this preverbal clarity.

What is there is the experience of the moment (seeing, hearing etc.) and nothing else.

2) Exercise: Sit still with closed eyes, relax and let go of activity, then at certain points choose a number (here is me doing it a few times: (14, 77,12, 14). Each time "you choose a number" look to: where did it come from, what decided it, how, was there a self? After each number let go and relax and be still before again "choosing" a number. Try it also one time where you write down each number that comes up. Write me some numbers and observations what is seen doing this.

Some numbers that came up: 8, 32,72, 94
-Numbers come up unpredictably at random times. The appearance is binary, so the full number shows up; there’s no granularity (rendering time) in the appearance of the individual numbers.
-I don’t see any self deciding, and I don’t see any decision-making process either. There are just the results (numbers). Numbers appear out of nowhere and disappear as quickly as they showed up (to nowhere).


Good stuff. Just don't hold on to any complex idea about what you see here. What we are looking here is very simple and needs no words. Which brings me to the most important line in your sharing:

"there's a sense of clarity even without reflection"

That is KEY. What is that clarity and is that clarity ever not there? Just be curious about that. For the next day:

1) During the next day: Take many short moments during the normal activities and relaxations of the day, where you let go of trying to understand anything or achieve anything or change anything, and just notice what is there pre-verbally. Just for a short moment, like even a split second, no trying to prolong or maintain anything. In those moments rest in this preverbal clarity.

2) Exercise: Sit still with closed eyes, relax and let go of activity, then at certain points choose a number (here is me doing it a few times: (14, 77,12, 14). Each time "you choose a number" look to: where did it come from, what decided it, how, was there a self? After each number let go and relax and be still before again "choosing" a number.

Try it also one time where you write down each number that comes up.

Write me some numbers and observations what is seen doing this.

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Elad
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby Elad » Sat May 04, 2024 4:32 pm

Lots and lots of clarity here Geza, beautiful. No feeling of needing to "correct anything" comes up here.

Say something about how this process so far is effecting the emotional and relational level of life?

For the next day:


1) first and foremost remember to come back always to direct experience and your own humble simple truth and words now, rather then theories and beliefs through others.

2) Be on the look-out for: when is there more or less sense of believing a separate self doer/controller is there or needs to be there? And is it true in direct experience? Write me about it.

3) Practice a period of 20-30 minutes (what feels good to you) sit very still facing a white (/neutral) wall, eyes open and soft. That's it. Write me after what is noticed.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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NoUserFound
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby NoUserFound » Sun May 05, 2024 5:50 pm

Thanks Elad! I appreciate the guidance.

Say something about how this process so far is effecting the emotional and relational level of life?

The effect is certainly positive.
Even though that the same thoughts and emotions come up as in the past there’s a subtle easing about holding onto them and there’s more curiosity about looking at them as they are. The result of this easing is less suffering.
And practicing the direct experince is somehow creating a whole new sense/layer of calmness and clarity. It is subtle but powerful.

Exercise: (staring at wall)

- More and more (compared to past days) is being noticed, specifically, the self-narrative is now more clearly just another thought that comes and goes.
- There's a subtle shift towards seeing whatever arises without needing to label it (e.g., as a thought). Not “there yet” on this but i got a taste of it.
- The flow of thoughts and other inputs is very intense and unpredictable.
- Wishes come up to hold onto something, but then it disappears as soon as the thought/wish is observed.
- Steady breathing seems to help stay in the direct experience.

Be on the look-out for: when is there more or less sense of believing a separate self doer/controller is there or needs to be there? And is it true in direct experience? Write me about it.


There are wises to have control (eg make sure my loved ones are safe and happy) but when i look into the momentary direct experience i don’t see the self. The wishes for control seem to be mostly powerful when i’m lost in thought. But I guess this is also just another story.

Lots and lots of clarity here Geza, beautiful. No feeling of needing to "correct anything" comes up here.

Say something about how this process so far is effecting the emotional and relational level of life?

For the next day:


1) first and foremost remember to come back always to direct experience and your own humble simple truth and words now, rather then theories and beliefs through others.

2) Be on the look-out for: when is there more or less sense of believing a separate self doer/controller is there or needs to be there? And is it true in direct experience? Write me about it.

3) Practice a period of 20-30 minutes (what feels good to you) sit very still facing a white (/neutral) wall, eyes open and soft. That's it. Write me after what is noticed.

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Elad
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby Elad » Sun May 05, 2024 7:25 pm

"The effect is certainly positive.
Even though that the same thoughts and emotions come up as in the past there’s a subtle easing about holding onto them and there’s more curiosity about looking at them as they are. The result of this easing is less suffering.
And practicing the direct experince is somehow creating a whole new sense/layer of calmness and clarity. It is subtle but powerful."

WONDERFUL. One thing to look at: Is there a you who practices direct experience? Or is direct experience completely effortless and natural? What makes seeing, hearing, feeling etc happen? Can you make it happen more by straining or brining effort? Or is it rather that misguided efforts create discomfort and do not clarify anything, except that now thoughts of effort and sensations of tensions are also part of direct experience?



"- More and more (compared to past days) is being noticed, specifically, the self-narrative is now more clearly just another thought that comes and goes."

Awesome.

"- There's a subtle shift towards seeing whatever arises without needing to label it (e.g., as a thought). Not “there yet” on this but i got a taste of it."

Great. Old habbits die hard. Actually the direct experience is always pre-verbal, but it can take time for the habit for incessant labelling to reduce. In any case it is not a problem, except seemingly when a thought believes it is.

"- The flow of thoughts and other inputs is very intense and unpredictable."

Yup. This will variate. But best to relate with it as the weather. It is what it is. I mean on a conventional level we can drink less coffee and etc, but in the moment it is what it is.

"- Wishes come up to hold onto something, but then it disappears as soon as the thought/wish is observed."

Great.

"- Steady breathing seems to help stay in the direct experience."

Yup. It will balance itself through more time spent just sitting or just laying or just walking, everything being as it is. More to say to this later, maybe.

"There are wises to have control (eg make sure my loved ones are safe and happy) but when i look into the momentary direct experience i don’t see the self. The wishes for control seem to be mostly powerful when i’m lost in thought. But I guess this is also just another story."

Great attending. Fortunately the wish to protect those you love conventionally speaking is not going anywhere. And yes, it can be seen that no real control is needed even to exercise what we conventionally call care and effort.

Sit still for 15-30 minutes, everything is as it is, look: what is controlling things, what is creating the caring/"investment" moment to moment (in whatever concerns and feelings it shows)?

Also do this exercise:
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Elad
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby Elad » Sun May 05, 2024 7:27 pm

Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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NoUserFound
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby NoUserFound » Mon May 06, 2024 7:51 pm

thanks a lot🙏🏻 Very helpful comments.

Is there a you who practices direct experience? Or is direct experience completely effortless and natural? What makes seeing, hearing, feeling etc happen? Can you make it happen more by straining or brining effort? Or is it rather that misguided efforts create discomfort and do not clarify anything, except that now thoughts of effort and sensations of tensions are also part of direct experience?

I do notice that hearing, feeling etc happens no matter what. But it seems to me that there’s effort being made now by practicing (even though it’s not done by a self) and the result is getting in touch with that sense of clarity. So, i’m not sure how to untangle this. Or perhaps the act of “noticing” is a special kind of non-effort activity?:)


Ex1:
What i see is that concerning/caring thoughts time to time come up and go in the moment. But I don’t see anything that would glue those momentary thoughts together to something continuous.

Ex 2 body exercise
I didn’t have much time for this today. Perhaps worth looking more into this again.
The mental models/images are very strong at this exercise. Eg. there’s a sense that the self is located on top of head even w closed eyes, and I have challenges seeing what creates this sense.




Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

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Elad
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby Elad » Mon May 06, 2024 7:58 pm

Good attending here.

Effort seems to be there, its like a thorn to remove a thorn, like counting breaths (effort) to limit some more distracting activity.

However, once the thorn has served it's purpose it can be set aside. Explore it this way: in the moments where the clarity is highest, is there effort involved? Just notice that.

And do body exercise again, give full attention to it. As you wrote, mental models and images are dominating the experience, keep looking for what is actually there in DE.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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NoUserFound
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby NoUserFound » Tue May 07, 2024 2:20 pm

in the moments where the clarity is highest, is there effort involved? Just notice that.
When I practise, I experience (but perhaps this is just a story) a cycling of effort and ease. When clarity is highest then ease is highest (and effort is lowest). I think I'm still telling myself the story that effort is needed to "get there" (to clarity or being in touch w DE).

Body exercise
-Body sensations appear at random times, unpredictably
-Mental models and images are so strong that the sensations seemingly appear directly as part of a mental picture of the body. I don't see anything in the individual sensations that should determine their place of source (e.g. arm, head) even though this appears different on the mental image ("of course, this is my leg").
-In DE, I only see the individual sensations (though, again, very much mixed with mental pictures for now), so I don't see the body's features (height, weight, in or outside, etc.), I don't see any of that directly.
-"What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?": Random body sensations coming up at random times. The mind is very fast (for now, it is instantaneous) at filling the gaps between to create a sense of a continuous body, but in DE, I only see those individual sensations.

Good attending here.

Effort seems to be there, its like a thorn to remove a thorn, like counting breaths (effort) to limit some more distracting activity.

However, once the thorn has served it's purpose it can be set aside. Explore it this way: in the moments where the clarity is highest, is there effort involved? Just notice that.

And do body exercise again, give full attention to it. As you wrote, mental models and images are dominating the experience, keep looking for what is actually there in DE.

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Elad
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby Elad » Tue May 07, 2024 2:29 pm

Good good, very clear. None of what you describe needs to change. Only some beliefs to see clearly as nothing more then beliefs. And that is all ready clear in your direct experience. Paradoxical, I know.

For the next day please just take several periods of time with a timer, where you either just sit, just walk or just lay. Let some of the periods be short (3-10 minutes) and at least one long (20-60 min). The more the merrier, but don't get ego ambitious about it or to please me or somebody else in imagination. Keep it playful and intuitive and from the heart.

Write me what is noticed after.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Elad
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby Elad » Tue May 07, 2024 2:31 pm

Ps. NB: when I write just walk, sit, lay, I don't say to try and limit other mental/emotional phenomena. They will be as they will be. Just that the only "chosen" activity is to walk, sit, lay.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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NoUserFound
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Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:23 pm

Re: Seeing what is

Postby NoUserFound » Wed May 08, 2024 4:59 pm

Walking:
There was a sense of clarity, ease, and curiosity while walking and biking in the city. I also noticed a much lesser urge to attach to "shiny objects" ("I want this, I want that").

Sitting:
It was similar to when walking but with even more calm. Thoughts came up, were seen as they are, and then disappeared. Very much the same thoughts as any other time in the past, but there was a sense of lightness meanwhile. Self-commentary was noticed.

Lying down (this was the longer session):
I closed my eyes during this session. I think after the experience of walking and sitting, I perhaps expected an equally good or even "better" experience. Thoughts came up and were recognized, but I somehow had a different vibe (perhaps less clarity) compared to the other two exercise. I was feeling tired at this point so this might had an influence.


Ps. NB: when I write just walk, sit, lay, I don't say to try and limit other mental/emotional phenomena. They will be as they will be. Just that the only "chosen" activity is to walk, sit, lay.

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Elad
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Re: Seeing what is

Postby Elad » Wed May 08, 2024 6:38 pm

Great good movement.

In the case where you were tired, or any other time where you do this and something "feels less good" or more thoughts that are somehow "not liked". Just notice if something is trying to fix it, change it, including through understanding it, and if there is, look if that actually helps or just causes more strain.

Practice more this way with periods of just sitting, walking, lying. As you wish and report as you wish.

Do these exercises (or one of them if it feels like much):

Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centred in the head.

What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centred in the head. Before the apple disappears....
...imagine a canary centred in the head, tweeting away. Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)....
...imagine a 'me' centred in the head. Stay with it...
...imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it... ...imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore. Give it a go, see what happens.

Cookie Exercise

Like cookies? If not, any food will do.
I can give you an imaginary cookie - here you go!
Imagine that you take a cookie and eat it – really feel it happening - the sensations, texture, taste, sound.
If you have some cookies, eat one, if not, eat something else for the exercise (fruit), and compare: what is the difference between an imagined cookie and the real one that is experienced? See if you can dive in the sensations of taste, smell.
Take your time to investigate how a real cookie smells and tastes, feels in the fingers and so on. Focus on sensations and perceiving, without naming it.
Then for a couple of minutes describe the taste and smell.
What does description have to do with actual experience?
Is sense of self referring to imaginary self or something that is experienced? Is there a self/I in the experience?
What is found?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Elad
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Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:25 am

Re: Seeing what is

Postby Elad » Thu May 23, 2024 12:28 pm

Hi Geza, here are my thoughts on how it would be best to continue here if/when you want:

1) Focus on doing the practices/experiments and just experiencing/discovering.

2) Focus on what feelings are coming up in the process, to allow them and learn from them.

3) Focus on freedom, staying with what you feel is appropriate, writing here with the frequency that feels right to you.

4) Focus on staying simple, writing from the heart.

When you feel ready to share what would feel right to you, write me.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Elad
Posts: 2992
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:25 am

Re: Seeing what is

Postby Elad » Mon Feb 24, 2025 12:38 pm

The thought came it might be time for you to resume explore here :)

Feel into it...
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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NoUserFound
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:23 pm

Re: Seeing what is

Postby NoUserFound » Mon Mar 03, 2025 2:18 pm

Hi Elad,
Thanks for the re-invite.🙏 I feel ready.

The below suggestions by you feel right.
As for freedom, I would like to keep the exercises to weekdays and experiment with the frequency. I'm happy to start with daily and then see how that works. Is that ok with you?

Thank you
Geza
1) Focus on doing the practices/experiments and just experiencing/discovering.

2) Focus on what feelings are coming up in the process, to allow them and learn from them.

3) Focus on freedom, staying with what you feel is appropriate, writing here with the frequency that feels right to you.

4) Focus on staying simple, writing from the heart.

The thought came it might be time for you to resume explore here :)

Feel into it...


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