Well, then. Shall we?

[Delma]

Back again. :)

I wanted to emphasize the pragmatism of this. Because in reading back over your initial post about your search, you've indicated that bliss has been experienced but then lost. The reason this happens is because there was no foundation of an unshakeable understanding of reality. Instead, there was an experience. The nature of experience is change, and it's therefore inevitable that an experience is going to be gone.

What's needed is to see that this is the way of reality, the way things actually are. More than that, there needs to be an understanding that this is the way things have *always been*.

This understanding may have been what was missing before. And that's why I'm cautioning you about the bliss.

Test, test, test, and verify each finding. If bliss comes, let it move aside and keep testing. This is unshakeable, not ever just an experience.

[susanlee]

good reminder. thanks.

[susanlee]

just checking in...still struggling with this one. so far, seems obvious that senses just happen without needing a self, just like breathing, waking, etc and yet with no 'something' to experience the perceptions of the senses, do they exist?

it seems like a continuum, can't have one without the other. I feel like I am swinging back and forth like a pendulum from yes, of course no self is needed... to yes, of course a self is needed. I plan to continue to dwell here, unless you have further advice.

love, susan

[Delma]

I see.

This is a good place to be. Confusion often seems to precede a breakthrough.

The senses exist. They are really happening. The confusion comes from the mind which is attempting to work this out with reason (which is taught). The simplest way to the answer is to keep checking direct experience without looking for an explanation which satisfies thought. Is there a real and direct experience of a reason for a 'self' to be needed? Look closely at what is *actually happening*. Because 'enlightenment' is simply the difference between very directly noticing the reality of experience rather than relying on what you've been taught to believe.

Right now, without thought, Is there a self experiencing? Can one be found anywhere at all in direct experience? Is the tactile experience of the keyboard simply happening or appearing on its own without a you internally directing, "ok, now feel the keyboard" or when tasting is there anything directing the tasting or does the taste just appear?

This is subtle and surprising. Allow yourself to be surprised by the truth of what you find.

Does this help? Ask more questions if you like. :)

[susanlee]

yes, very helpful....the words 'without thought' and 'in direct experience'.......very helpful

just sense perceptions happening (no self needed) ...perceiver appears spontaneously (poof) along with perception(no self needed) (both just one - not separate, like two sides of one coin, can't have one without the other.)

Again, jaw-dropping amazing.....senses.....sense perceptions....all these mysteries....its like a 'who done it?' mystery novel. or a 'how done it?'

I am inclined to keep researching this mystery.....see where it goes.......what do you think?

I am not sure what you mean by 'subtle and surprising'. When I ask myself what is subtle and surprising in this, the answer that comes is that what most surprising for me is the palpable sense of trust all this engenders. Hard to put into words, but if we went no further that this last post, I feel completely taken care of, safe, like a child with no cares, and just ready to enjoy the show....like a magic show...poof, poof, poof....mysterious amazing appearance, mysterious amazing appearance, mysterious amazing appearance....

I have a suspicion that you will tell me this is just an experience, though, and to put it aside and keep looking. This sense of trust, though, seems unshakeable for many days now....I don't even know if 'trust' is the best word,...the closest I can find.

feedback welcome. love, susan

[Delma]

Hi Susan,

Go with the trust. :)

AND keep looking. :D

Definitely keep researching the mystery. It seems to be going to good places. But what about the self? I wonder whether there is a lingering thread..... Can you tell me this....

If the self is thought only and this is seen by 'Susan', is there a sense of a watcher of the thoughts? Or do the thoughts simply appear to no one? As in 'thin air'? Is there a you anywhere at all?

Let me know what you find or sense there. That may just be one of the 'self's' final hideouts. And I'll tell you about a potential pitfall we want to rule out.... It's possible to disengage from the ego-based idea of a self but create a more spiritual one. We need to look at that because there is utterly no self anywhere. Not at all.

Just life living itself.
No you.
Never has been a you.

That's the Freedom.

[susanlee]

ok...will keep going because yes, there is a sense of a watcher. the watcher doesn't seem spiritual or not-spiritual. and who knows.....so thanks for the warning because the watcher and the self seem to be inextricably and undeniably aware, so must be the self is in that hideout. don't know how to get past that....so will keep going.

something noticed since last night's post is that sense perceptions are very much more simple that previously thought....became aware that they are very simple and they have seemed so complex due to a lot of interpretation and definitions, but actually get simpler and simpler the more I pay attention to them.....don't know if its important or not,

off to the office. love, susan

[Delma]

Good. Now we can look for this watcher to see if indeed one exists in reality.

If there was a watcher, where would one exist? Isn't the watcher also a thought? Instead of a watcher watching thought, doesn't thought happen just one at a time.

thought
thought about thought
thought about a watcher watching
another thought

etc... it's endless.

Look there. Is there truly a watcher, or is it also not actually there?

Allow yourself to be surprised by the answers that come when checking.

[susanlee]

thanks for the above post ....
yes, everything in your post is accurate so I continue to 'look there.' the watcher is definitely not a body, or the sense perceptions.....but seems to be an awareness of all that appears......'awareness' is also just a thought, though.....so I continue to 'look there.'

Have been having very vivid dreams lately and when I awake the past couple of days I wonder, who actually is the watcher of those dreams? the watcher is only there simultaneous with something appearing, during dreamless sleep there seems to be no watcher.....and still some whiff of seeming continuity of awareness...

will keep looking.

love, susan

[Delma]

Hi Susan.

Based on direct experience only, Is a watcher necessary, or is its existence an assumption?

:)

[susanlee]

Hi Valarie, No, a watcher is not necessary. its existence is a memory.

[Delma]

Hi Susan,

Does the self exist at all? Are there remaining elements or hiding places we need to scout out?

:)

[susanlee]

Hi Valarie,
there certainly is no evidence toward proof of a self and still don't know. can't definitively say 'yes' or 'no'.

all of the explorations have resulted in such trust and gratitude though, that it might not actually matter what the answer is.

Is it possible to have a definitive answer?

[Delma]

Absolutely. That's liberation.

Where is the self now? Can you point to what feels like a self? Let's look at it.

[susanlee]

when asked "where is the self now?", and attention is paid to the question, the self feels here...wherever that is, don't know... just here. As far as I know, can't point to what feels like a self....it is without any qualities that can be put into words. Even words that are close, like 'invisible aware space' are not correct. During most of the day & night, is not noticed as anything or anywhere.