The Freedom of no Self

All threads where seeing happens are stored here. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
You are welcome to continue your conversation with your guide here after your name is turned blue.
User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 11586
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:16 pm

there is no controller here in experience at all, and no need to posit one,all of experience is just happening without a me or I.
Correct.

How does it FEEL to see this?

There are pointers for this, such as


Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

User avatar
aloshan
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:02 pm

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby aloshan » Wed Mar 13, 2024 6:20 am

How does it FEEL to see this?
Freeing, and then the feeling of fear takes over. The thoughts "but who will control anything if I let it all go" , followed by the thought "there never was anyone controlling anything, nothing will or can be lost, except for the delusion that there is an I, doing things"
How is the movement controlled?
I have no idea, it seems to, like everything in my 6 sense spheres, to just happen
Does a thought control it?
No, thought does not and cannot control anything, its just thought
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No.
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
The decision to turn the hand over, seemed to arise out of nowhere. In fact I'm not even sure if there was a decision. There was a thought "I turned my hand over" AFTER the hand was turned over, but at no point did a thought make a decision to turn the hand over.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Nothing that I can find. It seemed to just happen as a consequence of what came before it, but even this is saying too much. There is nothing here that made that choice. No static permanent thing, choosing things. A hand was chosen, all by itself.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 11586
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:04 pm

Good. Yes, exactly.

How does it FEEL to see this?

Can you say 100% there's no separate self?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

User avatar
aloshan
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:02 pm

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby aloshan » Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:27 am

How does it FEEL to see this?
It feels utterly freeing, everything is just happening, nothing to resist anymore. There is no "me" in anything that can make a mistake, that can experience regret. There is nothing "wrong", nor can there ever be. All is as it is.
Can you say 100% there's no separate self?
Conclusively I can say there is no separate static form controlling anything anywhere in experience.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 11586
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:25 am

Excellent.

Let's do a couple more aspects of this & then you can answer "final" questions.

We'll look at Body, then Time, then Memory while this new awareness settles.


Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

User avatar
aloshan
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:02 pm

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby aloshan » Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:17 am

Can it be known how tall the body is?
No
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No, simply sensations appearing
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
In experience there is only sensation appearing, no concept of inside or outside
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
Sensation
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Sensation arising and then falling away

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 11586
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:00 am

Yes. Good.

Time Exercise

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time? Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next? Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Loving
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

User avatar
aloshan
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:02 pm

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby aloshan » Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:41 am

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time? Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next? Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
No, in experience there only seems to be a single moment. Thought seems to use memory to divide this into seeming separate events, but no separation can actually be found
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
It doesnt seem to be moving at all
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
I cannot find a beginning or an end
How long does the ‘now’ last?
I am unable to answer this as there does not seem to be a time component to now
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
As above, in direct experience the "now" has never started
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
The "now" never becomes the past
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
It seems to be the experience of memory, but no past can be found in actual experience
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
There are only thoughts about the concept of time, in direct experience no time can be found, no past or present, even the concept of "now" implies a "not now" which cannot be found.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 11586
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:24 am

Good.

Now. here's your memory pointer"


Memory Exercise

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?

What is the memory ‘made of’?

WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?



Loving
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

User avatar
aloshan
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:02 pm

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby aloshan » Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:42 pm

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.
What is memory exactly?
It seems to be a thought, mostly imagistic
What is the memory ‘made of’?
Thought
WHEN does the memory appear?
Now
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
A memory thought seems to reference another thought, however they are both just thought
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
It cannot be known exactly, memory is fickle, I cannot be sure that it refers to something that has actually happened
Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
The same thing as the memory thought, just thought
WHEN does the future thought appear?
Now
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
Nothing
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
This is imagination, I have no way of telling if a thought I think will happen, in fact I can almost be assured that it will never happen the exact way I thought it
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
At its core I can find no difference
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?
I cannot find a difference.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 11586
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:12 pm

Yes. You've got it.

Here are the final questions. Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions.



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?



Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

User avatar
aloshan
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:02 pm

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby aloshan » Sat Mar 16, 2024 2:20 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate "self/I/me" entity anywhere at all in any shape or form. There never was. These words self, me, I are labels, pointing to nothing at all
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of self, seems to be a belief in an entity, that exists in this mind/body controlling things. A little thing, pulling and pushing levers, thinking thoughts, experiencing the world. It seems to start from a young age, when we are indoctrinated into believing that such a thing exists, people then refer to it, and entire language and thought systems are built upon this thing, inherent in every living thing, controlling everything. It becomes a base assumption that lies unquestioned.

The sense of self, seems to arise from a misperception of thoughts and/or sensations as I or me. With thought, like everything else, it simply arises, however there is a thought following it that says "I thought that" or "this is me". This next thought is believed and this belief obscures the obvious fact that this is just another thought, there is no need to posit a "me" or an "I".

There is also a sensation that arises in the body, when the body moves and when thoughts appear. This sensation is sometimes paired with thought and happens so quickly along with the thought/action, that they seem to arise together - so that it literally "feels like a self, doing things, or thinking thoughts". This sensation/thought is then used to reify the belief that "there is a me, a thing, an entity here controlling things, look, I just moved my hand, I just thought that thought". If scrutinized this is demonstrably false, at no time did any entity of any kind come by and start controlling things. However this belief is so ingrained that it seems intertwined with every perception. It simply takes looking at actual experience to see the unreality of the current belief.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels, unfettered. It feels freeing, to continually remember that there is no need to push and pull, to go somewhere or do something, to attain this or that, or add new belief systems or attain realisations or states of mind. The seeking component has completely died, there is no longer a desire or hunger to read or learn about new spiritual concepts.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The realisation that through all my years of reading up on no self, my diagrams and videos and voice notes, all of this built up a spiritual persona that knew the conceptual material in and out but was deeply lacking the actual experience of seeing absolutely no controller or agency in any of the 6 sense doors, this is what made me look.

The bit that pushed me over was seeing the "I" belief keep jumping to the next concept to continue hiding every time I looked for it. The "self" kept hiding in "awareness", it said " you cant find me in any of the sense doors and I am not thought, but what about this awareness thing, it feels so boundless and it doesn't seem to change. This is where the self is!"

This belief in an "I" sneakily tried to hide in the I AM concept, in awareness, until I shone the light on this - the belief I had was that there was a self IN experience controlling things NOT that the self was this nebulous boundless awareness thing. So I decided to attack the belief I actually had - that there was a self IN experience controlling things while allowing this background of awareness/I AM to remain undefined for now. And ofcourse looking at experience, there is no "thing" controlling anything else. And that is what a self is defined as - an entity that controls. So now it cant hide in awareness anymore, it cant hide at all, I can see clearly, there isn't even anything that could hide.

The self simply does not exist and never did.

User avatar
aloshan
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:02 pm

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby aloshan » Sat Mar 16, 2024 2:27 am

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
I cannot locate a decision point. There is a thought that something was decided, but this is just thought. Decisions seem to happen by themselves.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
I cannot locate a point of intention. There is a thought that something was intended, but this is just thought. Intentions seem to just be thought
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
There is no free will here as there is nothing to have free will
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
There is no choice here as there is nothing to choose
Describe control & give examples from experience.
There is no control here as there is nothing that could control
What makes things happen? How does it work?
I have no idea what makes things happen. It seems to happen based on what occurred before it, but I cannot posit an agent that causes anything. I have no idea how things fundamentally work.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
There is no "you", there's no "me" here to be responsible for anything. In direct experience everything is just happening by itself, there is no agent that can be held responsible

6) Anything to add?

No

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 11586
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Mar 16, 2024 12:00 pm

Yes. Exactly. Very good.

Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions. Stay tuned.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 11586
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: The Freedom of no Self

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Mar 16, 2024 3:23 pm

No questions. Welcome home!


We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference and I'll give you the information on that.

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule

I'm Stacy Ann Clark in Colorado if you want to connect on Facebook.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Amazon [Bot], Google [Bot] and 180 guests