The Gate

I'll bet there's no "me" watching tv, or driving or whatever!

What I was asking was, are you expecting an answer to "Is there an "I" that is thinking the thoughts" to be achieved by thinking about it? Are you expecting an answer to pop up in a thought?

Like you would if you wanted to know the answer to "what did I eat for lunch yesterday" the answer would come up in a thought?

When I think about it: There's no me looking. There's just being in the river of what's happening, of what's going on (There's not even being in the river, there just is the river of stuff happening.). There's just a mindless flow of thoughts and happenings (e.g. my leg moving to stretch), with no "me" there. There's just stuff happening without a happener, making them happen. There's just a train of life happening with no one making it happen.

When I think about it: There's no me looking. There's just being in the river of what's happening, of what's going on (There's not even being in the river, there just is the river of stuff happening.). There's just a mindless flow of thoughts and happenings (e.g. my leg moving to stretch), with no "me" there. There's just stuff happening without a happener, making them happen. There's just a train of life happening with no one making it happen.

Yes, but Im not asking you to think about it, Im asking you to look

Are you thinking about it, or are you looking?

What I was asking was, are you expecting an answer to "Is there an "I" that is thinking the thoughts" to be achieved by thinking about it? Are you expecting an answer to pop up in a thought?

Like you would if you wanted to know the answer to "what did I eat for lunch yesterday" the answer would come up in a thought?

I don't think an answer will pop up in a thought because I don't think there's anything there. There's no "I" to pop up, and thoughts come and go on their own without anyone controlling them, so thoughts can't answer. When I look at thoughts, they are just ideas that are there that have no substance. If thoughts have no substance, which they don't, then anything that comes up as a result of a thought (e.g. a feeling would also have no substance).

GotIt wrote:
When I think about it: There's no me looking. There's just being in the river of what's happening, of what's going on (There's not even being in the river, there just is the river of stuff happening.). There's just a mindless flow of thoughts and happenings (e.g. my leg moving to stretch), with no "me" there. There's just stuff happening without a happener, making them happen. There's just a train of life happening with no one making it happen.

Neeel wrote: Yes, but Im not asking you to think about it, Im asking you to look

Are you thinking about it, or are you looking?

I think I was looking without thinking when I wrote the above. I need to stop the thinking and just look and just be with what is as it is.

Any suggestions you have on how to just look and not "think" would be appreciated. Thanks.

I don't think an answer will pop up in a thought because I don't think there's anything there.

So if you ask yourself, or someone else asks you "Whats 2 + 2" the answer doesnt pop up as the thought "4"?

What I am asking is, if you expect to gain your answer in the same way as you get the answer to "Whats 2 + 2"?

Heres an example of where I think you were looking

On of the things I'm finding when I'm looking is that when I try to look at thoughts, it's all past tense. If I decide I'm going to look at thoughts or a thought, it always a thought that has already happened. I can't look at the thoughts as they happen. There's no me looking at them as they happen, but rather a me looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.

You noticed that thoughts were already there, fully formed, already happened. You looked at thoughts, and noticed something about them.

Heres an example of where I think you were trying to find an answer by thinking about it

If there is no "I" then how does one person decide/become a teacher and another person decides/becomes a dentist? If there is no one driving the train in those directions, then how does it go in those directions, or choose those directions (assuming those are directions it loves and wants to go in, how does it go there).

So you would have had the thought "Is there an I" , to which the answering thought popped up "If there is no I then how does one person decide to be a teacher" to which the answering thought popped up "If there is noone driving the train in those directions how does it go in those directions"
And so on and so on.

Do you see the difference? In the first one, you noticed something. In the second one, you got lost in a sequence of thoughts, which were about no self, but you werent looking, you were thinking.

I think you are doing way too much of the second one, and not enough of the first one, that is what I am trying to get at

GotIt said: On of the things I'm finding when I'm looking is that when I try to look at thoughts, it's all past tense. If I decide I'm going to look at thoughts or a thought, it always a thought that has already happened. I can't look at the thoughts as they happen. There's no me looking at them as they happen, but rather a me looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.

Thanks.

What I hear you saying is that I need to look at the thoughts without questioning the what about and why of thoughts? I understand what you are saying in the one about the teacher and the dentist being thoughts not looking.

NeeeeL said: So if you ask yourself, or someone else asks you "Whats 2 + 2" the answer doesnt pop up as the thought "4"?

What I am asking is, if you expect to gain your answer in the same way as you get the answer to "Whats 2 + 2"?

Why doesn't the answer pop up as the thought "4"? The number "4" comes into my brain automatically, but isn't that the number popping up as a thought?

So am I supposed to look at thoughts and watch them as they happen, or am I supposed to look for an "I" behind the thoughts, or neither or both? Or can I just be with what's happening to watch it as it happens automatically, or what? Thanks.

I think actions come in response to thoughts without a "me" creating the actions. There I go with the thought/think again. Look to see if it is really true that a thought happens and then an action happens--me talking out loud to myself!

Twice today, less than a split second awareness of resistance to letting go of "I" (oh, maybe resistance to being let go, a holding on inside and not wanting to release, resistance to having someone look at and remove the sense of self that has the belief in an "I".). I wasn't aware of this as I really want to do this (crash the gate/see the truth).

Will keep looking.

What I hear you saying is that I need to look at the thoughts without questioning the what about and why of thoughts? I understand what you are saying in the one about the teacher and the dentist being thoughts not looking.

Not exactly , no. You need to look at thoughts, but not the contents of thoughts

NeeeeL said: So if you ask yourself, or someone else asks you "Whats 2 + 2" the answer doesnt pop up as the thought "4"?

What I am asking is, if you expect to gain your answer in the same way as you get the answer to "Whats 2 + 2"?

Why doesn't the answer pop up as the thought "4"? The number "4" comes into my brain automatically, but isn't that the number popping up as a thought?

That was my point. When you think "Whats 2 + 2" the thought "4" comes into your brain automatically.
When you think "Is there an I behind all this", you dont know the answer, so the brain frantically searches around for an answer, and you end up coming up with more questions, like the teacher and dentist example.

The answer to the question "Is there an I?" is not going to be found in the content of a thought. By that I mean, you cant sit down and think it out. You need to look at what happens in reality, with thoughts, emotions and sensations.

So am I supposed to look at thoughts and watch them as they happen, or am I supposed to look for an "I" behind the thoughts, or neither or both? Or can I just be with what's happening to watch it as it happens automatically, or what? Thanks.

All of the above. Watch how thoughts appear, as you put it, in the past tense, that it has already happened when you look at it. Watch how the thoughts keep coming and coming, searching for an answer. Look behind the thoughts, feelings, sensations, and see if you are doing them, or if they are already there, whether you like it or not?

Remember, as I said before, the narrator in your head, the commentator, is also just thoughts. They seem very personal, like you are doing them, so look and see if they are different from other thoughts?

Twice today, less than a split second awareness of resistance to letting go of "I" (oh, maybe resistance to being let go, a holding on inside and not wanting to release, resistance to having someone look at and remove the sense of self that has the belief in an "I".). I wasn't aware of this as I really want to do this (crash the gate/see the truth).

Its something to be aware of, this resistance. Try and explore further, who or what is resisting? Is the resistance just another thought?

Also, just to note, we are not aiming to remove the sense of self. We are aiming to look at the belief in a separate, controlling "I" or self, and seeing if that belief is true or not.

I am not sure if any of this is helping you at all, so it might help me if you tell me if I am confusing you, or which of my pointers make sense, and which dont.

This is really helpful. I think the whole process is hard to explain since there's no direct way (e.g. if x then y or do this then do that). Everyone sees differently, and you can't directly see what I'm seeing or the way I'm looking, so it's not easy to know which direction to point to.

Another awareness I had today: I was talking to someone the other day, and they said sitting meditation type stuff doesn't work for them and that they need more active stuff. I realized today that: There's a beliefedness that my path is the accurate path, (that's it's the true/right path?). I had a felt sense of this along with the beginnings of the realization that I'm wrong about this. Now I'll look for the "I" behind this. I think I'm also wrong about other beliefs I have (probably about all of them, but I'll look for an "I" and see what's behind things).

Not exactly , no. You need to look at thoughts, but not the contents of thoughts

Thanks, that's helpful.

That was my point. When you think "Whats 2 + 2" the thought "4" comes into your brain automatically.
When you think "Is there an I behind all this", you dont know the answer, so the brain frantically searches around for an answer, and you end up coming up with more questions, like the teacher and dentist example.

The answer to the question "Is there an I?" is not going to be found in the content of a thought. By that I mean, you cant sit down and think it out. You need to look at what happens in reality, with thoughts, emotions and sensations.

This also makes sense.

All of the above. Watch how thoughts appear, as you put it, in the past tense, that it has already happened when you look at it. Watch how the thoughts keep coming and coming, searching for an answer. Look behind the thoughts, feelings, sensations, and see if you are doing them, or if they are already there, whether you like it or not?

Remember, as I said before, the narrator in your head, the commentator, is also just thoughts. They seem very personal, like you are doing them, so look and see if they are different from other thoughts?

What came into my head when I read your feedback: The thoughts keep coming up and looking to be picked up, and then "I" come along and pick some of them up, which reinforces the thoughts, and they keep coming to hopefully get picked up by me (because it feels good to get picked up). I'm going to look and see if this is true, and who is behind all of this (is there an "I" that is picking up the thoughts).

Its something to be aware of, this resistance. Try and explore further, who or what is resisting? Is the resistance just another thought?

Another thought that just came to me: resistance doesn't have any beingness to it (wait, I think it does have a beingness, but it has no solid ground, which it hates!), it comes from fear, which comes from a thought, which is a nothing. I'm going to look to see if this is true and look to see if there is an "I" behind any of it.

I am not sure if any of this is helping you at all, so it might help me if you tell me if I am confusing you, or which of my pointers make sense, and which dont.

I'll do this.

This doubt stuff (that I had) is interesting as I was just thinking yesterday and today that you had been responding frequently and then nothing (and maybe that's part of the process as I need time to look or something, or maybe it's not), and my mind went to the negative (what if I don't hear back from him--which, if I didn't, wouldn't stop me from looking and keeping on this path in whatever way possible). It's all about me! It's never about maybe he was busy or whatever! Oh, and it was good to have some time to look, and I appreciate how responsive you've been.

I think some of the doubt is related to the resistance (I'll never get it. It will take way too long and Neeel won't want to do it that long, etc., etc.). Me thinking out loud: Neeel's Neeel. I can't control him. He's here or he's not, and it's not the end of the world if he isn't, and he never said he wouldn't be, it's just a thought you brought up (or a thought that came up, you latched onto it--not real strongly, though, or anything). Neeel's doing what he does and helping people see through (and he has a life beyond this and gets busy sometimes!). I need to look to see if there is "me" who is doing all of this thinking!

Thanks!

What came into my head when I read your feedback: The thoughts keep coming up and looking to be picked up, and then "I" come along and pick some of them up, which reinforces the thoughts, and they keep coming to hopefully get picked up by me (because it feels good to get picked up). I'm going to look and see if this is true, and who is behind all of this (is there an "I" that is picking up the thoughts).

This all sounds like a little story you have made up. Do thoughts look to get picked up? Do they feel good to get picked up? Can thoughts do any of this, or are they just there, and then not there?
Im not interested in the contents of your thoughts on reading my posts. I want you to go and look.

Its much simpler than this. You already had some insight when you saw that -

On of the things I'm finding when I'm looking is that when I try to look at thoughts, it's all past tense. If I decide I'm going to look at thoughts or a thought, it always a thought that has already happened. I can't look at the thoughts as they happen. There's no me looking at them as they happen, but rather a me looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.

this was you doing some looking. Do more of this.

This doubt stuff (that I had) is interesting as I was just thinking yesterday and today that you had been responding frequently and then nothing (and maybe that's part of the process as I need time to look or something, or maybe it's not), and my mind went to the negative (what if I don't hear back from him--which, if I didn't, wouldn't stop me from looking and keeping on this path in whatever way possible). It's all about me! It's never about maybe he was busy or whatever! Oh, and it was good to have some time to look, and I appreciate how responsive you've been.

Ye sorry about that. I just didnt have time to reply over the last couple of days, it wasnt anything you did. If Im going to give up, I will let you know :D
dont worry about it. I will respond whenever I can, and it will be nothing to do with you if there is a gap in responding.

Also, its down to you to do the work. I can only point. So even if theres a gap in responses, you can still carry on looking.

it's just a thought you brought up (or a thought that came up, you latched onto it--not real strongly, though, or anything).

Interesting. Did you bring the thought up, or did it come up in response to me not replying? Who or what latched onto it?

This all sounds like a little story you have made up. Do thoughts look to get picked up? Do they feel good to get picked up? Can thoughts do any of this, or are they just there, and then not there?

Thoughts are just thoughts. They can't feel anything. I'll do more looking.

Ye sorry about that. I just didnt have time to reply over the last couple of days, it wasnt anything you did. If Im going to give up, I will let you know :D
dont worry about it. I will respond whenever I can, and it will be nothing to do with you if there is a gap in responding.

No problem. Do what you need to do. Whether you're responding or not, I'll keep looking. Gaps are fine as they give me time to look more.

Interesting. Did you bring the thought up, or did it come up in response to me not replying? Who or what latched onto it?

I don't know if I brought the thought up. I think it may have come up in response to you not replying. I need to look and see in stuff like this.

Who or what latched onto it?

I have no idea, but I'm definitely going to look at it. The who latched onto it, is a good question as I latch onto a lot of things (thoughts).

Thanks.

Today in looking it looks like stories are about the future or the past. There no story being in the now. It looks like stories come up on their own. There's no "I" there deciding to create and creating a story about "x".

There's also no "I" choosing feelings. If close friend of mine were to die sadness would come up, and I couldn't make happiness be there.

Me thinking out loud:

Okay look at this, is there an "I" that couldn't make happiness be there or is there no "I" that could choose happiness in this situation or choose anything in any situation because "I" doesn't exist. Who is the "I"? Is there an "I"?

When someone says think of a cow, or a chair, etc. you can, but when someone says think of a "you" nothing instantly comes to mind. A chair doesn't have a "self". A cow doesn't have a "self". Do I have a "self" and who is the "I"? If someone says think of a person, I can, but if they say think of my "person" that's different.

Off to look.

Hi Neeeel,

I'll be out of town and possibly without a computer for the next couple of days. If I have internet access, I'll write, if not, I'll keep looking at everything to see if there is an "I" and write when I get back.

Didn't see much today, but did briefly notice a thought behind a reaction (a brief fast thought and then an automatic reaction). I keep searching for the "I" in all of this, the "who's behind it". I'm not seeing/finding that there is a specific definable person/entity (like a chair or a dog would be considered a thing/a something or some being), but it still feels like there is a substance to "me". I'll keep looking.

Thanks.