Sharing

[Noro]

Dear Sebi,

Great looking into thoughts and sensations!

Of course, I say this now, that there is no huge problem or danger in the story. I'm curious, if it turns out that I'm seriously ill, which I 'm going to find out in the coming weeks, that if under that presure, this state stays, or how sticky the thoughts, the fear, regarding the body will be. Of course I hope that it won't be tested this way, we'll see.

Im so sorry that you are going through such challenging times with your health. I do think that this inquiry into DE with the various exercises will be helpful in assisting you in navigating through the stress and the fear.
Seeing through the illusion of the self will not necessarily mean that there will be never be any more suffering and resistance, but the first layers of personal identification will have dropped, and with continued redirection of attention towards DE, old habit patterns of resistance will weaken and dissolve.

Here are two exercises to play with:


BUTTCHAIR

Sit down and relax, close your eyes, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.

Now 'go to' the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as 'butt on chair' and answer from what you can FIND.

1. How many things do you find? Are there two things (butt and chair) or is there just one thing – sensation?

2. Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?

3. Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

4. Do you find an 'I', or a body part 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

5. Could any suggestion of 'a feeler', be anything other than a thought?

You can also do this exercise with other parts of the body touching another surface
i.e. Hand on a table, or feet on the floor etc.


HEARING EXERCISE

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Bring your attention fully into 'what is heard'.

1. In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what is heard'?

2. Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

3. An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just what can be heard'?

4. Can a boundary be found between the hearer and what's heard or is there only what's heard?

5. Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?

6. Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


After doing the exercises separately, you might like to do them together.

Please report back your findings on both exercises.

Love,

Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!

1. How many things do you find? Are there two things (butt and chair) or is there just one thing – sensation?

Just the sensation of pressure.

2. Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?

Just the sensation.

3. Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

Just the sensation.

4. Do you find an 'I', or a body part 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

Just the sensation.

5. Could any suggestion of 'a feeler', be anything other than a thought?

The sitting is just happening, the pressure sensations just happening. I can experience this from the perspective of “me”, but I have to “turn on” that perspective. I can switch between the 2 kind of experiences. With pleasant sensations in a calm state the first perspective arises first, but if I would cut my finger off right now, I think I would fall back to the “me” state. “I” cut my finger off, OMG.
This is also valid for the thought process. If something radical bad is arising, then there is a time gap between the state of “me” and the state of “this is just happening”. In such case, I have to consciously remember, that this is not happening to “somebody”. In a calm, or meditative state, or if there is work going on, I can dwell in this flow state, but if there is sudden unpleasantness, then the first reaction comes from the “me” state.

1. In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what is heard'?

Audio sensations are more tricky for me. The hearing has a centre and is localized. The labelizing procedure is happening more frequently, then with tactile sensations.

2. Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

There is no „me” thought, when hearing, but the sensation is

3. An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just what can be heard'?

The sensations is perceived from the head/ears area. It’s a centrelized experience.

4. Can a boundary be found between the hearer and what's heard or is there only what's heard?

Yes, there is a gap, between heard and what is perceiving the sound.

5. Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?

I wouldn’t say it’s a hearer, but it is centrelized. Like an antenna. In this case the head/ears area.

6. Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought

?
No, but it is a sticky expereince, that the hearing is perceived, not just happening.

I’m doing the hearing exercise since some month now, after reading Angelo Dilullo’s book, where this is described in detail.
But this centrelized way of perciving, and that the sound is localized, is still my experience.
Strangly with thoughts/emotions/the mythology around them, the identification is much more dissolved.

Is there a better way to make the enquiry regarding this, or it’s fine how it is done, I just should go on with the inquiry?

Hugs.
Sebi

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

Good, you described your DE in answering the first 4 questions.

5. Could any suggestion of 'a feeler', be anything other than a thought?

The sitting is just happening, the pressure sensations just happening. I can experience this from the perspective of “me”, but I have to “turn on” that perspective.

OK, so sitting is happening, sensations are happening, and then thoughts (of a me) are just happening

What turns on the perspective of me?
Is it anything more than a thought "I" turning on?

I can switch between the 2 kind of experiences. With pleasant sensations in a calm state the first perspective arises first, but if I would cut my finger off right now, I think I would fall back to the “me” state. “I” cut my finger off, OMG.

Sebi, when you talk about switching, you are out of what is actually being experienced DIRECTLY here. You are describing from memory....(remember the Colored Socks exercise?). The rest is your vivid imagination. NOT DIRECT EXPERIENCE!


1. In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what is heard'?

Audio sensations are more tricky for me. The hearing has a centre and is localized. The labelizing procedure is happening more frequently, then with tactile sensations.

This experience is very understandable when you start to practice this exercise. It can take a little while to get the mind to quiet down and let go of being on the alert, and so the labelling can calm down. So carry on with this exercise and note your DE: Hearing is happening, thinking is happening, sensations are happening. See if you can relax your whole body into the sound field, as if it was a wonderful symphonic piece that you were absorbed into.


4. Can a boundary be found between the hearer and what's heard or is there only what's heard?

Yes, there is a gap, between heard and what is perceiving the sound.

Where can that gap be located, precisely?

I’m doing the hearing exercise since some month now, after reading Angelo Dilullo’s book, where this is described in detail.
But this centrelized way of perciving, and that the sound is localized, is still my experience.
Strangly with thoughts/emotions/the mythology around them, the identification is much more dissolved.

Angelo's book is great, and so are some of his videos on the sound space.

Look into this centralized way of perceiving (hearing) the sound.
Can you locate that center? Where is it exactly? What do you find there in DE?

The sound is localized.
With your eyes closed, where is the sound located exactly?
What is telling your where the sound is located, other than a thought?
Can you let that thought go and just get back to hearing?
Relax into the soundscape, let it penetrate into your body. We receive sound through our whole body.

Is there a better way to make the enquiry regarding this, or it’s fine how it is done, I just should go on with the inquiry?

I think you are doing fine with this enquiry, it takes practice to gently open to a new way of experiencing through the senses without thoughts analyzing and interpreting what is going on. Just keep at it.
Maybe try it with something repetitive, like listening to the sound of waves or running water?


Here is another exercise to play with

LABEL AND REALITY CORRELATION RED-GREEN

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN?

Love,
Rowena

PS. For some reason I couldn't get the font color to change for my questions.

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

Please ignore the last exercise. It has not come out correctly, I will resend it tomorrow.

Love
Rowena

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

Here is the exercise again:

LABEL AND REALITY CORRELATION RED-GREEN

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is seen directly, PLEASE DO NOT ANALYSE !
It is not about the answer you give me, there's no correct answer.
IT IS ABOUT THE LOOKING!

Love,
Rowena

[Noro]

OK, the third attempt works !! Apologies for any confusion! :)

LABEL AND REALITY CORRELATION RED-GREEN

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is seen directly, PLEASE DO NOT ANALYSE !
It is not about the answer you give me, there's no correct answer.
IT IS ABOUT THE LOOKING!

Love,
Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!

What turns on the perspective of me?
Is it anything more than a thought "I" turning on?

It’s the thought of „I”, thought of a „doer”. It’s a question of focus. Being absorbed in the sonud, being in the sound or just hearing it from „outside”.

4. Can a boundary be found between the hearer and what's heard or is there only what's heard?
Where can that gap be located, precisely?
There is no gap in the submersion.
Look into this centralized way of perceiving (hearing) the sound.
Can you locate that center? Where is it exactly? What do you find there in DE?

I can locate the sound, but no centre of a hearer. If there is a monotone sound, like on a train, then the location disappears. When I sit in my house in total silence, there is a constant fuzz, like sound of silence. That sound is everywhere, but when the fridge turns on, or the dog makes a sound, that is located. On the other hand, when the sound of the fridge goes on for a while, and I can submerge in it, then the location can disappears.

The sound is localized.
With your eyes closed, where is the sound located exactly?
What is telling your where the sound is located, other than a thought?
Can you let that thought go and just get back to hearing?
Relax into the soundscape, let it penetrate into your body. We receive sound through our whole body.

As written above: Submersion is possible with constant, monotone sounds, as I experience now. With just one sound suddenly appearing, there is location added to it.

I don’t know, if it has to do with this exercise, but recently I get more experiences, with the state of “this is it”. It started meanwhile driving. I got into a thoughtless state, and there was just a huge astonishing going on, how beautiful everything is, and how satisfactory everything is. A baby-like amazement, without any filter or label. And this somehow crawls often back, maybe not that intensive, but it appears to me, as somehow an operating system update would have started. A slow, subtle change, into less thoughts, less labeling, less filtering, less dissatisfaction, more amazement, equanimity, joy, child like bewilderment, and an ongoing excitement, as life would be an ongoing trip to Disneyland. As little birds would flutter around in my heart.

I will come back to you later with the labeling exercise.

Hugs.
Sebi

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

Great seeing! You've got this!

Is locating a sound anything more than thought content arising?
i.e. Sound + Thought content ABOUT the sound (sound of a fridge coming from over the other side of the room)

You say its a question of focus.... Yes, attention switches, in DE:
simply hearing happening; and then,
simply thinking happening (without going into the content of thought, and back to..
simply hearing happening.....etc.

When you say hearing from the "outside" can you describe what is happening in DE?

I don’t know, if it has to do with this exercise, but recently I get more experiences, with the state of “this is it”. It started meanwhile driving. I got into a thoughtless state, and there was just a huge astonishing going on, how beautiful everything is, and how satisfactory everything is. A baby-like amazement, without any filter or label. And this somehow crawls often back, maybe not that intensive, but it appears to me, as somehow an operating system update would have started. A slow, subtle change, into less thoughts, less labeling, less filtering, less dissatisfaction, more amazement, equanimity, joy, child like bewilderment, and an ongoing excitement, as life would be an ongoing trip to Disneyland. As little birds would flutter around in my heart.

Beautiful! Nothing to add here.

Love,

Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!

Is locating a sound anything more than thought content arising?
i.e. Sound + Thought content ABOUT the sound (sound of a fridge coming from over the other side of the room)

You say its a question of focus.... Yes, attention switches, in DE:
simply hearing happening; and then,
simply thinking happening (without going into the content of thought, and back to..
simply hearing happening.....etc.

When you say hearing from the "outside" can you describe what is happening in DE?

When I say „outside”, I mean that with the thought content appearing, I get torn out from the experience of submerging in the sound. The brain starts to analyze the sound, locating and assinging it to a source. Then this fades away, and there is again only the sound. And this changes in waves.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Green color, picture of grass appears.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Green.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The word as a lable is stronger for me, than the color.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

The meaning of the word overlays the red marking.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, for me semantics are primary, color doesn’t matter....maybe after all this years at universitiy, marking texts etc., the color doens’t changes the words semantics.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

No. Color and semantics are 2 different things here.

One question: In the last days, as spring came early this year, the work in the garden started, I stopped to meditate and read all day, and I’m back in normal everyday life. I noticed two things. Strangely when I’m surrounded with people the state of the ‘blessed state’ or ‘emptiness’ (I mean lesser thoughts, more in the present, feeling joy, gratitude and playful curiosity) is more present. But when I’m alone and doing my work, somehow I get more lost in thoughts and after some days, the whole ‘new sensation’ fades into the background and thoughts are taking over again, then anxiety appears more, and the whole train of ‘normal’ me-state is suddenly there again. And it seems like a dream, that life can be different. Meditation helps, nevertheless the deepness of meditation also changes. I need more time to get in the states etc. Nevertheless the focus on breath comes back more often, then ever before and I have my moments throughout the day, joy, bliss appears just out of nothing, usually there is a moment of clarity before this, focusing on the body sensations, a bit of being lost in the now, getting out of the thoughts. Then suddenly there is the state again for some seconds, my heart gets warm, there is the love, there is undividedness. And then I fall back in planning, working, functioning…. I see now, why some people spend their life in a monastery…
What does this change of states mean? Does it mean, that I just understood this rationally? (You see, that doubt is suddenly appearing also. It whispers in my ear: yes, you didn’t get shit, you are just faking this etc.etc.). But then what were all does beautiful experiences? How can it be, that I feel deeply and see it clearly that there is no self, that everything is empty and we are filling everything up, with ort labeling process? I see this, feel this and understood this. There is no canvass anymore for thoughts and feelings, they just appear and fade away. But then how can it be that this bliss is depending on my daily routine? When I’m nourishing it throughout the day, this calmness, empty joyfulness is constantly there, but when I’m on the material level, working, organizing, burning in the flame of doing things and going on with my visions, plans, than this whole thing is fading away….? Doubt raises, confusion raises, anxiety raises, fear raises of loosing this forever, all tough 5 minutes after I’m again ‘in it’, but after fear is there again….Totally stupid and irrational…. It’s like a fear of losing a knowledge that I can’t lose anymore, but the fear arises, when I’m not deeply in the ‘blessed state’. There is the illusion and fear, that ordinary life can eradicate this.
Of course I had the illusion, that this will be constant, after all those experiences and deep sensations. Can I do anything to make this more solid? I mean without spending all day in deeper mediation and books, podcasts reg. the topic? Or is this completely normal and it will be solidified with time? Or does it mean, that I didn’t had a ‘true’ shift yet, and only after that the pulsation between the states won’t be this frequent? What is your experience with this?

Hugs
Sebi

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

Great LOOKING with the Hearing Exercise!

When I say „outside”, I mean that with the thought content appearing, I get torn out from the experience of submerging in the sound. The brain starts to analyze the sound, locating and assinging it to a source. Then this fades away, and there is again only the sound. And this changes in waves.

Yes! Well spotted. This is what happens! You have SEEN how thought content casts a filter over the DE. Nothing wrong with that, its how we've all learned to operate and function in conventional reality.

No, for me semantics are primary, color doesn’t matter....maybe after all this years at universitiy, marking texts etc., the color doens’t changes the words semantics.

and

No. Color and semantics are 2 different things here.

Haha! This exercise really is really tricky, and you fell beautifully into the trap, and you have admitted as much!
The exercise is asking you to LOOK at what is your actual experience.
Actual or DE is what we are taking in directly through the senses.
All those years of study have had stimulated your brain to see the world through an analytical mind. Super useful in many circumstances, but not here. Here we are getting minimalist, we are looking at what is prior to thought content.
So, SLOW DOWN a moment and stop and LOOK, what do you see in DE?

Can you have an actual Experience from a label?
What is your actual experience from reading the word 'MOON' when it is daytime?
Does the reading of a label somehow set in motion a train of thoughts, memories and/or visual images thinking about the word 'MOON'?

This is a quote that I love "Dishonesty is a state in which I am mesmerized by words and disregard the senses". I'm not sure who said it.

Then suddenly there is the state again for some seconds, my heart gets warm, there is the love, there is undividedness. And then I fall back in planning, working, functioning…. I see now, why some people spend their life in a monastery…

Yes, yes, yes! That falling back into planning, working, functioning as the mind has been conditioned to operate since you were a child! This will continue to happen, so please drop any expectations that it could be otherwise.

You said it yourself so clearly in the previous post:

And this somehow crawls often back, maybe not that intensive, but it appears to me, as somehow an operating system update would have started. A slow, subtle change, into less thoughts, less labeling, less filtering, less dissatisfaction, more amazement, equanimity, joy, child like bewilderment, and an ongoing excitement, as life would be an ongoing trip to Disneyland. As little birds would flutter around in my heart.

An operating system update. I think it is exactly that!

What does this change of states mean? Does it mean, that I just understood this rationally? (You see, that doubt is suddenly appearing also. It whispers in my ear: yes, you didn’t get shit, you are just faking this etc.etc.).

Does 'What's Happening' have to mean something? What is meaning something other than thoughts about "What's Happening"!
Doubt thoughts. More thought content related to expectations. From my experience, doubt thoughts will continue to arise in various ways. What is interesting is to see what that doubt thought is pointing to as far as felt sensations in the body.

What does "You didn't get shit" feel like in the body?
What does "You're faking this" feel like in the body?
Is there a feeling of contraction or expansion when such thoughts arise?

Please have a look at the Labelling Exercise again, and I will find another exercise for you and send it on the next post.

Love,

Rowena

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

CUP EXERCISE
Take a cup and place it in front of you.
Start looking at it and notice any thoughts labelling what you see.
Consider the process of looking.
Consider the process of seeing.
Watch thoughts as you consider a 'seer'.
Notice what happens to seeing as you consider a seer.
Go back to simply watching thoughts as you look at the cup.
After a while watching thoughts, they will get bored and slow down. Now look for spaces between thoughts.
Focus on seeing in the spaces.
There will be no labelling. ...and anyway the colors, the textures, the shapes, etc. will be too subtle, too complex to be accurately described.
As this seeing is happening, ask yourself:

Can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Can you find a line of demarkation between a seer and what's seen? Or,
Is there just seeing that encompasses everything?

Reminder: It is always helpful to settle down in the body for a moment rather than jumping straight in.

Love,

Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!

So, SLOW DOWN a moment and stop and LOOK, what do you see in DE?

I see the color red.

Can you have an actual Experience from a label?

No. Labels are connected to the past. I look, but I see the past. Labeling is time traveling.

What is your actual experience from reading the word 'MOON' when it is daytime?
Does the reading of a label somehow set in motion a train of thoughts, memories and/or visual images thinking about the word 'MOON'?

Of course, this is how the mind works. A picture of the moon comes to mind, then a story starts, the thoughts are set in motion.
Choo choo, there comes the thought train. A thought generates another. If there is emotion attached to it, then that comes also, and then it really sucks me in. I see that and watch that.

"Dishonesty is a state in which I am mesmerized by words and disregard the senses"

I like that, It can be widened to the story. We are mesmerized by the story, we are mesmerized by suffering.

What does "You didn't get shit" feel like in the body?
What does "You're faking this" feel like in the body?
Is there a feeling of contraction or expansion when such thoughts arise?

Of course contraction. I’m aware of that. Nevertheless it can suck me in, it can have effect on me. Yes, it is caused by expectations. The expectation of permanence. There is the frustration, that after a longer period in the „new „ operation system”, calmness, equanimity, meltedness etc, the old OS can anytime activate itself, and there is anxiety filter on my eyes again. What I try to „do”, is to accept everything, and let go all the expectations. Just welcome everything that comes and not labeling what can be accepted and what should not be there after all this...
I’ve heard to many stories about the marvelous experiences of others. And since I live alone and I have this urge to listening and reading about this topic, it fills my head with stories. There is the feeling, that the time has come to come off the whole information collecting. No matter how strange it will be to be in silence the whole day long, I will try to have a detoxification period now. I will only concentrate on what is, be in silence and will only read texts regarding other topics. I reached a kind of burn out, it seems. And developed a kind of FOMO, that if I don’t read, or listen to this and that material, I will miss out on something.

Can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping?

Sorry, I don’t understand.

Can you find a line of demarcation between a seer and what's seen? Or is there just seeing that encompasses everything?

I can take the labels off, and look at it in a fresh way. But there is the sensation of seeing at something. So there is a seer and a seen.
Looking for a longer time, the shape can fade and a white aura appears around it. Then suddenly the centralized view disappears and there is this curious, amazed love experience toward it. But this goes away, and then there is the ‘I’m looking at it’ state.
When this melted state comes, I can see everything with this baby-eyes, but the ‘normal’ way of seeing is much stronger, it kicks in quickly.
I should focus more on seeing and hearing like this, but I’m not sure, if this can be practiced….Some say it should be enough to see it ones…But on the other hand I have the experience, that this doesn’t works for me. I could describe it as a rewiring process… I heard a lot about this sudden way of changing (You see it, you got it.), but for me it comes in short insights, and then the old way of sensing, feeling etc. comes back. It’s a rollercoaster.
What can you say about this? Can I evolve in this? But who is evolving? Why is there no permanent change yet? What is this pulsation in every kind of experience? Is this a phase? But if there is a phase, thee must be a path…But who’s path it is?
Oh….thoughttrain comes again…

Hugs
Sebi

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

Great Looking and seeing!

Of course contraction. I’m aware of that. Nevertheless it can suck me in, it can have effect on me. Yes, it is caused by expectations. The expectation of permanence.

OK, you are aware of contraction. Being aware of something is not the DE of something……
What does the contraction feel like?
Where are the sensations in the body from which you wish to divert into thought?
There is a mechanism at play between avoidance of fully feeling the sensations in the body and diverting to thought. This creates a loop between sensation and thought that gets ever larger as more thoughts come in.

Expectations are stories, they are a set-up for disappointment. Those bliss states are lovely, but they are fleeting, and they don't mean anything. Do you know the Zen proberb: "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

And developed a kind of FOMO, that if I don’t read, or listen to this and that material, I will miss out on something.

At LU, we encourage you to keep to the LU material as much as possible. Have you read Ilona Ciunaite's book "Liberation Unleashed", or Gateless Gatecrashers? I highly recommend them both.

Can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping?

Sorry, I don’t understand.

Yes, sorry this whole question was not very clear.

What can you say about this? Can I evolve in this? But who is evolving? Why is there no permanent change yet? What is this pulsation in every kind of experience? Is this a phase? But if there is a phase, thee must be a path…But who’s path it is?
Oh….thoughttrain comes again…

So many thoughts, expectations and desires! Lets have another look for that illusory "I".

LOOKING FOR THE "I"
If you look for the I, what is there?
If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?
Go to DE,
Where did you look?
What exactly did you find?
Could you find the "I"?


NATURE EXERCISE

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move your attention to inner sensations and see how they too are in constant motion,
See how thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Now close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

Is witnessing part of the one movement, too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

Love,
Rowena

[Noro]

Hi Sebi,

I wanted to respond to what you wrote about the seeing exercise with the cup.

I should focus more on seeing and hearing like this, but I’m not sure, if this can be practiced….Some say it should be enough to see it ones…But on the other hand I have the experience, that this doesn’t works for me. I could describe it as a rewiring process… I heard a lot about this sudden way of changing (You see it, you got it.), but for me it comes in short insights, and then the old way of sensing, feeling etc. comes back. It’s a rollercoaster.
What can you say about this?

Sebi, your DE with seeing is spot on. DE is seeing without labels. Seeing is simply happening.
You say you should focus more on seeing and hearing in DE….. and I agree, it is a wonderful daily practice, and you have clear experiences of dissolving into the hearing and seeing.

When this melted state comes, I can see everything with this baby-eyes, but the ‘normal’ way of seeing is much stronger, it kicks in quickly.

Yes, these are beautiful moments. I find that when I am out walking is the perfect time to "practice" simply seeing, full attention goes into seeing. Its not about looking to see things, its getting right close up to the seeing space as a whole. Closer and closer, until it seems that the seeing is happening with the whole body.

Can I evolve in this? But who is evolving?

Exactly!

Why is there no permanent change yet?

What would permanent change look like? Is this not a thought?
Is there an "I" or "me" that want's permanent change?
Is there a thinker that want's permanent change?
Isn't everything in a permanent state of change, is there not only impermanence?

You answer it yourself:

What is this pulsation in every kind of experience?
Is this a phase? But if there is a phase, thee must be a path…But who’s path it is?
Oh….thoughttrain comes again…

When you see the thought train comes again, can you give it a smile or little chuckle?

These moments of clarity are just that, they are impermanent, just as the moments of getting caught up in a thought train. That's the way it goes. The mind is always active, doing happens, paying attention to things happens, driving happens, sitting with a cup of coffee happens, and taking the time to 'melt' into simply seeing, or simply hearing, or simply being with the sensations of the body while sitting or lying down, happening. Does there need to be an "I" or a "me" for all these things to be happening. LOOK AGAIN, can an "I" or a "me" be found?

Look at that "I" and "me" are they not simply thoughts, labels used in thought content to point to something.
What are they pointing to?
What are they useful for?

Love,

Rowena

[Sebestyen]

Hi Rowena!

What does the contraction feel like?

It is like being in a squeezer. Pressure is happening. It is like, when the body prepares for a fight. Heart rate goes up, pressure in the stomach, tingling on the fingers.

Where are the sensations in the body from which you wish to divert into thought?

There is no witch to divert, sorry I don’t get this question.

At LU, we encourage you to keep to the LU material as much as possible. Have you read Ilona Ciunaite's book "Liberation Unleashed", or Gateless Gatecrashers?

All the materials are saying the same. Ilona writes about this very direct, maybe that’s the difference. Yes, i have read the GG, I’m currently readin the LU. before that I read Angelo’s book, which is also very spot on and direct. I tried to read Daniel Ingmar’s book, but I couldn’t finish it, for me it was very vague and like a fitness plan...strange. There is a Hungarian woman, who is also very direct, if not in the same way like Ilona. I listened to a lot of Jim Newman nowadays which is interesting, because before my insights, the radical message was very irritating for me, but now I listen to with a great delight.
But from today on I stopped the podcasts during the day. I just read a bit in the evening. But I decided that after finishing Ilona’s book, I will take also in reading a pause.
I try to be in silence during the whole day, let’s see what is brings.

LOOKING FOR THE "I"
If you look for the I, what is there?

Thought, emotions, memories coming, going, creating each other.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Relaxation in the body. All is just happening.

Go to DE,
Where did you look?

In the body, in the brain. In the space between thoughts.

What exactly did you find?

A grasping which has no root and no direction, like thoughts, emotions. A bit of fear of loosing control, of dying.
The me is an idea. It’s like a dream, which is not aware, that it is only a dream, And it lives in a dream, and it is afraid of waking up, since it knows, that that would mean, that is going to be inexistent in that very moment. It can keep up it’s existence through separation.
The insights can be delightful, but it is still experienced by a „self”. It happens with „me”. This perspective comes after the insight, during it is not there. But somehow it reboots itself again and again. Every morning it is there. It looses it’s energy, when there is exhaustion in the body. It can’t reboot so easily, and it looses the control more frequently. I have more insights when the body is tired. And after a good sleep it boots again with great force. That’s why waking up is always followed by contraction. Thoughts rush, a to-do list rolls out.

Could you find the "I"?

No, just these fleeting sensations, see above.

Now close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

No boundary, everything is part of the same flow.

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

No. It’s everything.

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

No. There is no difference, between the grass, the fly, the tickling of the fly on the hand, the hand it self, and the thought of the hand.
There is no difference of an insight state and the contraction.
Everything is part of the same. Buddha is the shit on a stick. Till now I understood this as being in the present, but this has another layer. The layer of THIS IS IT. There is no difference in value. For what this is it, the seeker and the enlighten one is the same. These are parts, and in the part there is everything. me daydreaming of a girl, and a high samadhi state are the same from this perspective.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

No, it’s a melting pot. Everything happens, flows. Everything is necessary. Only from the perspective of the dreamer, are thing which shouldn’t be there.

Is witnessing part of the one movement, too?

Yes, there is nothing, which is not a part of IT. Even the dreamer, the self is a part of it. The illusion is also a part of it!! Oh, this is nice to realize and write it down.... There is nothing wrong with anything. The relative is the absolute, and vice versa. They are mirroring themselves.

Is there anything which is not just happening?

No.

What would permanent change look like? Is this not a thought?

It is. Maybe dying, but that is also not permanent...so nope, it’s a thought only.

Is there an "I" or "me" that wants permanent change?

No, it’s just the wanting of permanence.

Is there a thinker that wants permanent change?

No, just the thinking.

Isn't everything in a permanent state of change, is there not only impermanence?

There is only coming and going. That’s what IT is.

When you see the thought train comes again, can you give it a smile or little chuckle?

Haha, I’m laughing all day long about these paradoxes Rowena...What else can you do...? Or to be more precise: what else IS there to do...?

These moments of clarity are just that, they are impermanent, just as the moments of getting caught up in a thought train. That's the way it goes. The mind is always active, doing happens, paying attention to things happens, driving happens, sitting with a cup of coffee happens, and taking the time to 'melt' into simply seeing, or simply hearing, or simply being with the sensations of the body while sitting or lying down, happening. Does there need to be an "I" or a "me" for all these things to be happening. LOOK AGAIN, can an "I" or a "me" be found?

No. Only the idea of it, which also comes and goes. The feeling and grasping for impermanence is the root of the idea of self.
A misunderstanding, that life depends on it. As without it, the body, life itself could not go on.
How did this happen....? I see the function of it, but it’s a big prize to pay... Nevertheless, this prize, the seeing of this, the inability of understanding all this, is also part of IT.

Look at that "I" and "me" are they not simply thoughts, labels used in thought content to point to something.

Yes, mostly it’s a self protecting system. It feed itself from the past experiences. it thinks, that the known, what already has been tried out, and didn’t cause death (independently it is a positive or negative experience), it’s the only save way. Everything which is unknown is dangerous and can lead to death.

What are they pointing to?

To the experiences of the past, the experience of the „me”, is also bind to the past. So it’s save, it’s the only way, to make sure, death doesn’t happens.

What are they useful for?

There was a lot of thinking going on in the last days around this... Why does this happen around the 2-3 years of life?
It is a frame for this human life, for functioning in this material world. Somehow separation, as the illusion of time, would be necessary, to live this life, in this body. it could be possible, that there is another dimension, where human life is happening, and this baby-state reactivates itself automatically after an age, just like we loose are theeth and we grow new, stronger ones. Why this is not happening here, I can’t tell. But for some is happening. Why not for everybody, is the big mystery....And that is also a-ok.

Big hug
Sebi