New Member Seeking Guidance

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

I suppose I should ask, Is it okay to occasionally share an insight or question I have? Outside of/in addition to the inqiuiries?

Of course, this is your inquiry :)

The decision: moving up upstate new york.
I lived here in college, but only went to college here because my brother did, and he only went because my mom made him. And she made him for who knows what reason. Then in 2020 covid happened and I decided to move somehwere familiar and chose here.

I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language. What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content? Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

Another factor in cause and effect is time, so let’s explore it.
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

I just wanted to share an insight, before getting back with the answers to the inquiries (I typically do these throughout the day then respond at night).

You asked a question yesterday - "Are these expectations really yours? Do you have to meet these expectations?" which prompted me to look out for what expectations I had, what kind of beliefs about how I should be have been culturally imprinted on me, etc. Then last night I happened to pick up this book which highlighted some to my suprise. The book is called Quiet and its about introversion - "being an introvert in an extrovert's world" type of thing. In part of the book the author talks about a cultural change that happened in the early 20th century (particularly in Europe and America) where extroversion became the new ideal for a person's character (it apparantly wasn't the case before then). Largely due to industrial revolution and the new norm of working with strangers at corporations, being talkative and instantly likeable, vocal and "electrifying" became the new ideal that would bring you friends, success and happiness in life.

It reminded me of so many times in my life, particularly my younger life, where my character tendencies were pointed out as being flawed in some sense. Being asked "Why are you so quiet?", being graded on class participation, etc. I think through this I have internalized my personality as flawed. And i think part of my expectations about enlightenment or liberation is the fixing of these traits.

I'm curious what you think about this, particularly in regard to traits like introversion/extroversion? And how you imagin those traits might change if at all with end of seeking and clearing out of delusion?

Thank you so much
Chris

[chrisg2]

Why does the wind blow?

Thought can come up with a story, but ultimately don't know.

What is “moving of the hands” in DE?

Dont know.

So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

There is no way to tell what makes anything appear. They just do. Outside of thought content there is no cause to the appearances.

Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

They are happening and thought seems to just comment on them but have no effect of causation.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

The moment is always moving so it isn't even definable. Its hard to even call it an experience because its just moving.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Sometimes it seems like this is the case - the dog barks and then a feeling sensation arises, but i can tell its always now. There is no way to prove causation, everything just arises. it seems to be in sequence sometimes but there is no way to prove any causation, or even continuation at all.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No it is new thoughts and new sensations each moment.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

The present moment never stops, so theres no way to capture it, define it or label a speed to it.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No

How long does the ‘now’ last?

it has no time, start or end.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

The past is just a thought in the present.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It doesnt exist, just thoughts and feeling sensations

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Just thoughts about time

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

Sometimes it seems like this is the case - the dog barks and then a feeling sensation arises, but i can tell its always now. There is no way to prove causation, everything just arises. it seems to be in sequence sometimes but there is no way to prove any causation, or even continuation at all.

Very good!

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?
Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for the delay, please see answers below.

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you?

It is just a thought. all movement is just appearing, any claim of distinction between inside and outside here and there is just a thought.

Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

No just a thought

Is there an owner of being?

No, I see this very very clearly at times, and it seems that the more and clearer i see it the less seeking. But there is still just residual frantic energy.

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

No, any others or separation is just a thought

Is there a “you”?

No

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

No, I see this very very clearly at times, and it seems that the more and clearer i see it the less seeking. But there is still just residual frantic energy.

Well, you know what to do with it. Seeking is based on the expectation of finding lasting happiness/peace/bliss by trying to fix something that is not as it should be. Seeking and expectation are a process driven by the belief that something needs to happen in order to be content and happy now. Notice expectations as they arise and see how they hold an image of how it should be in contrast to how it is. Feel the gap. Notice the tension that is connected to the wanting. Feel the sensation. The tension is fear that expectations won’t be met. There are also feelings of sadness, regret, shame, guilt, blame, anger, desperation, and/or hopelessness and they are all linked to expectation. If one can let go of wants, should’s, and should not’s, triggers are released too. No more expectations, no more fear that they won’t be met, no more resistance to what is here now. In the end, all that is left is surrender. Remember, resistance to what IS is a tool for discovering unchecked story

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Is there anything else that you want to explore together? We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?

Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for the delay.. I will get back to you on these shortly!

Chris

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for the delay on this. I had a lot to process and a lot seems to change every day. I had to get clear about how much of that change was on the illusion of self aspect of being and how much was other related or unrelated material. I hope it makes sense and I look forward to your reply.

Chris

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?

My expectations around what is going to come with recognizing there is no self. Many of the items on the initial list that was sent by LU are dawning, which is bittersweet. I feel less confused around who I am, yet there are still so many emotions that are processing and coming up all day. So many sensations of pressure and mental content that for moments at a time feel like a body and an uncomfortable emotion. This is all going in the right direction of being more free from them, and some of that freedom seems to come from a deepening of realization that there is no ME here. It is just thoughts and sensations arising.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

I think this is ^^^ what was just mentioned. Ive had clearer and clearer seeing that nothing is going to happen thats going to fundamentally change who i am and what my life situation is, INCLUDING EMOTIONS. That last part is the part that makes it kind of dissapointing. I had a lot of belief that no unessary anger, fear, sadness, etc would exist the moment I saw that there is no self. Meditation, tai chi and other practices are helping to process and heal these emotions so I still do them a lot but my practice is less about realizing the nature of self and more just about deepening into oneness.

Is seeking still going on?

There is less of the type of seeking for looking for who i am. There is still emotional discomfort and one of the strategies the mind uses to seek comfort is looking deeper into the illusion of self. But Im seeing this more clearly as just more confusion and a pointless strategy due to the inherent fact that there is already no self.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

The poiint made above ^ about the mind still doing its habitual strategy of seeking and trying to rope back in seeking is still happening but im noticing it happening as a function of an already complete being. I dont think I have confusion about it, but its interesting that its happening.

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Yes

Is there anything else that you want to explore together?

Do you use the fetter model? I dont know much about it, but Im curious to know how it progresses/what is left to drop after the illusion of self and how you go about guiding someone to those deeper stages?

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

My expectations around what is going to come with recognizing there is no self. Many of the items on the initial list that was sent by LU are dawning, which is bittersweet. I feel less confused around who I am, yet there are still so many emotions that are processing and coming up all day. So many sensations of pressure and mental content that for moments at a time feel like a body and an uncomfortable emotion. This is all going in the right direction of being more free from them, and some of that freedom seems to come from a deepening of realization that there is no ME here. It is just thoughts and sensations arising.

Haven’t we all been there?! Yes of course once the story has started, there will be causes and effects and a character who suffers the effects, but seeing that the character is an illusion, changes the story a tiny bit. Zooming out allows the “big picture” to be seen – things are not personal, they just happen and it’s only thought which characterises them as “good” or “bad”, “comfortable” and “uncomfortable” based on previous thoughts. You are seeing it already, just the mind says no; it’s like being used to one thing and expecting that to change. Life is expressing itself through us – like seeing the same object from different points of view 😊. Good experiences, bad (uncomfortable) experiences are only experiences if they are seen as the” same taste”. It takes time for the old thoughts to settle. It will start to loosen up and eventually, in time, their effect will diminish. What actually changes in time is the description of what is happening – the mind becomes a better servant. It almost seems like thoughts are going through the five grieving stages (with the “death” of the “I”)- denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance 😊. It’s OK as long as thoughts are seen for what they are – fiction. Stepping in and out of story is part of the dance of life. All is included. Ask yourself - can life go on without the story?

I think this is ^^^ what was just mentioned. Ive had clearer and clearer seeing that nothing is going to happen thats going to fundamentally change who i am and what my life situation is, INCLUDING EMOTIONS. That last part is the part that makes it kind of dissapointing. I had a lot of belief that no unessary anger, fear, sadness, etc would exist the moment I saw that there is no self. Meditation, tai chi and other practices are helping to process and heal these emotions so I still do them a lot but my practice is less about realizing the nature of self and more just about deepening into oneness.

This is all that is left after the self is seen through – all the conditioning. It doesn’t go away automatically, it has to be re-examined. All enlightenment searches are built on the expectation that says, Once we get “there,” life is going to be so easy and blissful, happy ever after. Seeking is based on the expectation of finding lasting happiness by trying to fix something that is not as it should be. Seeking and expectation are a process driven by the belief that something needs to happen in order to be content and happy now. Peace and joy are here but are not noticed as the mind is busy creating I can’t wait for this to happen scenarios, constantly dreaming about something else. Notice expectations as they arise and see how they hold an image of how it should be in contrast to how it is. Feel the gap. Notice the tension that is connected to the wanting. Feel the sensation. The tension is fear that expectations won’t be met. There are also feelings of disappointment, sadness, regret, shame, guilt, blame, anger, desperation, and/or hopelessness and they are all linked to expectation. If one can let go of wants, should’s, and should not’s, triggers are released too. No more expectations, no more fear that they won’t be met, no more resistance to what is here now. In the end, all that is left is surrender. It is ironic as the more you pursue Happiness/Bliss the more you don’t find it. The love and peace are already here - just look behind the curtain of expectations. They come with surrendering to what is, finding the beauty of just THIS. At the end of the day THIS will happen the way it will happen with or without your approval (thoughts). Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state (i.e. happiness and bliss). States come and go like everything else. Feeling all emotions is the same as living life fully; experiencing all, without thinking that it should be different.

Do you use the fetter model? I dont know much about it, but Im curious to know how it progresses/what is left to drop after the illusion of self and how you go about guiding someone to those deeper stages?

There is no big difference overall, it is just a bit more structured approach. The LU method gives you the tools how to question the 10 fetters. There are a lot of groups that help with that. I can give you some links to videos and articles. Let me know if you want them. I find it a good way to inspect beliefs in a structured way. I try to cover most important beliefs with my guiding, but it’s a good reference of what else can be explored. I can help with this if you need assistance. They say that LU inquiry covers the first 3 and some guides actively point only to these, but for me it covers all of them if you question everything. And I try guiding a bit further.

So is there anything else that you want to explore together? Would you like to answer the final questions?
Of course it doesn’t mean that our conversation is over if you need help. We can continue our conversation here on the thread or outside but the thread will be moved to the archives.

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris
It's been a while... Are we still doing this?
Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

I appreciate your patience.

I don't think I need much more guidance at the moment. Though it is nice to have someone to reach out to occasionally, perhaps. There is still a lot dropping away rapidly, im less worried than every about where it's going, but if it were possible to check in after some of the dust has settled that would be nice. If not no worries. I really appreciate your help!

Chris

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

I don't think I need much more guidance at the moment. Though it is nice to have someone to reach out to occasionally, perhaps. There is still a lot dropping away rapidly, im less worried than every about where it's going, but if it were possible to check in after some of the dust has settled that would be nice. If not no worries. I really appreciate your help!

That’s awesome. And yes, whenever you need help you can contact me either here (continuing on your thread) or directly. I’ll give you all my details

Now… Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris

Do you intend to answer the final questions? Do you still need my help? There are still a lot of people waiting to be guided.

Love
Rali

[chrisg2]

Hi Rali,

Im so sorry for the delay, I missed your last post for some reason. Thank you for your patience and guidance! Please see answers below

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The simplest answer is it that the illusion of separate self is the appearance of emotion. But emotion is a combination of thoughts and feeling sensation. However, sometimes thought and feeling sensation appear but don't register as emotion, and since it doesn't arise as an emotion the sense of locality and solidity that creates the sense of being separate self doesnt arise. So what makes thought & feelings sometimes appear as an emotion and therefore a separate self? It's belief. Investment in the thought (though there is no one investing or believing). The thought just GETS BIG, and the scenario (time and space) that the thought refers to is taken to be real. So a sense of self arises when an imaginary time and space is taken to be real.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The insight into the illusion of self has clarified since starting the dialogue, and the result is not feeling confused and blown away, I actually feels more normal. The more clear it becomes, the more rest and less fear there is. The unity of being is obvious more of the time than ever (and more and more each day), and it is only when thought arises analyzing the implications of that that fear or confusion can arise, but those moments are relatively brief.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I dont know if there is a last bit. There is still some residual emotion (overinvestment/belief in imaginary scenarios) and confusion and fear that is falling away every day. There is still some falling away of what I used to believe to be my self. So Im not sure Ive been pushed over yet. But the dialogue has helped me clarify and deepen. Especially the recognizing the illusoriness of the body. Again I dont think this has been TOTALLY seen through but I see it more clearly that ever.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Yesterday I was walking in the woods, and it started raining. (Rain appeared in the sight, sound and feeling sense domains). Then a thought "turn around and go home" arose, but I believe a feeling (not touch sensation but a feeling more normally associated with the body) arose BEFORE the thought. It was as if the intention to turn around was a feeling before it was a thought. I'm curious if that is how you see it as well? It seems like intention happens as a more visceral instinct and THEN a thought arises in reaction to that insctinct, and kind of pretends to be the initiator.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

30 minutes ago, I made the choice to put the sweater that I now have on, on. But if you ask when that choice started it would go back infinitely. My house was cold, because I turned the heat down last night, which I do because my fiance has too many blankets on the bed, which she does because she gets colder at night than i do, for whatever reason, etc. etc. So the "choice" is just a result of prior causes and conditions.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

The other night my fiance and I were deciding what to eat for dinner, whether to go out or cook. We were weighing all the pros and cons of each choice, and I pointed out in the moment how we have no idea really which one we'll end up on. And I watched very carefully as we made a decision to go out, which arose out of nowhere for no reason that I could pin down, then our car wasnt able to get out of the driveway due to snow so we ended up staying in. It was all just random and appearing. It was the moment where I just said "lets go out" where "control" seemed to appear, or free will, but watchign it clsoely I have no idea why those words appeared and "lets stay in" didnt.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

We cant know. Appearances appear and pass away. You could say culture, conditioning and causes are what make things happen the way they do, but what ultimately makes them happen is unidentifiable.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I dont exist, so its impossible to say. On a more relative level I suppose I take on some responsibility to have as much clarity and equanimity in life as possible. I suppose I take on the responsibility to not harm people or speak badly about people or steal from people, and to take feedback from the world and from people. But this is just how I'm wired and how I happen to show up in the world, and it doesnt seem like I could change any of these attitudes if I wanted to.

6) Anything to add?

Not really, life is becoming easier and more freeing. It is a completely mysterious experience that Im dying into each moment. Where it leads is a question that is fading away. though I can still get caught in that question in moments - but I realize it is a trap - that is where fear and expecation is rooted. There is nothing to do or know. That is becoming clear on a level that is prior to the mind.

Thanks Rali!

[poppyseed]

Hi Chris
Welcome home!Thank you for your beautiful answers!

There is still some residual emotion (overinvestment/belief in imaginary scenarios) and confusion and fear that is falling away every day.

This is quite normal at this “stage”. You might want to watch this video, it will bring some more clarity what is to be expected:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

I think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

Also, if you want further exploring, I'd suggest these teleconferences:
There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on YouTube.
To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.
Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
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Our next weekly one is : November 13 2023 06:00 AM Sydney DAYLIGHT SAVING time - AEDT (still Sunday for many)
There is also one each Saturday at 9pm(AEDT)
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Arriving late and leaving early is fine.
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Click here to Join Zoom Meeting
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(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4
Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
Ilona
Write to them for the next meeting. Ilona’s is April 9th.
For Fetters:
Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks.
There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.
And Kevin Shinilac has https://www.simplytheseen.com/ but I don't think he is guiding any more, although there are instructions on his site.

Love
Rali