Unraveling

[davjak]

It's starting to sink in. I will do the exercise to night and report on it.

When I did the previous pointer, checking in with DE periodically this is what I got at one point:

Isn't this a lot of conditioning to unpack?...what a daunting task...it's so much that it seems improbable... real, lasting, deep change is so difficult and rare... these are all thoughts... habituated attention... breaking entrenched habit... there is a lifelong habit/addiction like a massive, intimidating edifice standing in the way... more ideas... where is any of it in DE?... what is not conceptual?... what is here without thoughts?... seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, thought... where am I in all this?... it's not a shell game with lots of places to look... there is nowhere to look. the experience is who I am... there is nothing else

[davjak]

This seems like a curious synchronicity, but before I looked at this exercise I wrote something like this down while at work:
I've been noticing that thought seems to feel a bit different now. The best metaphor I can find is that they're in 'the cloud', like there is now some distance between them and something that was more identified with them. Previously they seemed to be who me was and obviously happening as me in my head. Now they seem to be 'in the ether'.

Where are they coming from and going to?

The word where doesn't make sense here. There isn't a where if there is only here. There is nowhere for them to ever be but 'here'.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Nada.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Never.

Can you predict the next thought?

There is no predicting.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Not possible.

Do you control where attention goes?

Never. There is directed attention, but who directs it?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Never, no one to choose. If there is choosing it comes by way of impersonal conditions.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

[Bluejay]

The word where doesn't make sense here. There isn't a where if there is only here. There is nowhere for them to ever be but 'here'.

It's unclear whether this is an expression of what you found in DE. But taking this at face value; this is reasoning, which is thinking. We are only here to look what is there.

If we go along with this line of reasoning, then if there is 'here' (and perhaps 'now') then where does here/now start?

Again, disregard any thought with the answer and look what is found.

There is no predicting.

Please describe in more detail what you see. Why can a thought not be predicted?

Never. There is directed attention, but who directs it?

If you feel like you are moving attention, then that is what needs to be addressed. So do you feel like you can move attention?

Never, no one to choose. If there is choosing it comes by way of impersonal conditions.

During our conversation it sounds like you feel like you are choosing, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation, so then this would be coming from knowledge, right?

[davjak]

Where are they coming from and going to?

I see. "There isn't a where if there is only here.", This is fallacious, because if there is a here, there is a not here. It was thinking. All that can be said from DE is thought appears and disappears. A thought is there, and then it's not.
This is skillful pointing, and I appreciate it.

Please describe in more detail what you see. Why can a thought not be predicted?

Because a prediction is based on something prior to what is predicted. In DE, there is nothing prior to any thought and therefore, the idea of predicting loses meaning.

If you feel like you are moving attention, then that is what needs to be addressed. So do you feel like you can move attention?

If there is a sense of agency, I see it as just part of the appearance. So, if there is the feeling of moving attention, it doesn't need to be attributed to an autonomous 'me'. If you are pointing to functioning that is entirely free of this possible sense of agency without independence, I could open to this view too.

During our conversation it sounds like you feel like you are choosing, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation, so then this would be coming from knowledge, right?

I can see this. 'impersonal conditions' is a concept. But I revert to the above. Do you smell fixation lurking somewhere in here? If so, please! go after it.
Much appreciation!

[Bluejay]

If there is a sense of agency, I see it as just part of the appearance. So, if there is the feeling of moving attention, it doesn't need to be attributed to an autonomous 'me'. If you are pointing to functioning that is entirely free of this possible sense of agency without independence, I could open to this view too.

When it comes to feeling like you're moving attention, see if you can find what comes before the feeling/thought that you are moving attention, before the attention moves.

Might be best done with eyes closed.

[davjak]

When it comes to feeling like you're moving attention, see if you can find what comes before the feeling/thought that you are moving attention, before the attention moves.

Will do and report back.

[davjak]

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's the sound of being gobsmacked.

When it comes to feeling like you're moving attention, see if you can find what comes before the feeling/thought that you are moving attention, before the attention moves.

One of the keys is 'what comes before'. Before refers to a conceived past. Only what is present in DE can ever be experienced. Before is imagination arising presently.
At first glance this doesn't seem to address the feeling of control, though. But control implies things that would violate the above. For example, control would require time. The exercise of control cannot happen without a controller and time for the controller to act. If before and after are purely conceptual and never anything more, there is no time, except as a concept. So, there is only DE, and nothing more can be deduced, expected, clung to, contacted, directed, etc.

A lot of 'stuff' collapses in this light. My DE is not of a radical collapsing, however. The DE feels like aroused energy and excitation.

[davjak]

A lot of 'stuff' collapses in this light.

Blathering to make it sound like a giant step. I'll remove that part when I find the eraser tool that's around here somewhere.

[davjak]

I see I'm making this into something 'out there'.

[Bluejay]

A lot of 'stuff' collapses in this light. My DE is not of a radical collapsing, however. The DE feels like aroused energy and excitation.

That's great!

Let's continue going deeper.

One of the keys is 'what comes before'. Before refers to a conceived past. Only what is present in DE can ever be experienced. Before is imagination arising presently.

That is true. Can you predict where attention will move? Look again at what happens before the feeling/thought 'I move attention'.

Hint: Pay attention to what happens to sensations before attention moves.

[davjak]

That is true. Can you predict where attention will move? Look again at what happens before the feeling/thought 'I move attention'.

Hint: Pay attention to what happens to sensations before attention moves.

I'm feeling confused. This is what comes: I can't know what comes before. All I can know is an idea of something occurring in another idea, i.e. the past/before. Are you directing me to see that this whole mental gymnastics of before/present/yet-to-come is futile and must be abandoned?

I don't know what happens to sensations before attention moves. I can only know the sensation arising presently. The rest is an abstraction. I also can't know presently, what sensation will precede a movement of attention, so I can't isolate a sensation and say this one will precede a movement of attention. In the same way, I can't say this sensation came before this movement. I can't see any sensation that came before, only concepts about what may be thought to have been. It seems to be a dead end, leaving only presently arising sensations and thoughts about it all.

[Bluejay]

I don't know what happens to sensations before attention moves. I can only know the sensation arising presently. The rest is an abstraction. I also can't know presently, what sensation will precede a movement of attention, so I can't isolate a sensation and say this one will precede a movement of attention. In the same way, I can't say this sensation came before this movement. I can't see any sensation that came before, only concepts about what may be thought to have been. It seems to be a dead end, leaving only presently arising sensations and thoughts about it all.

No problem. Let's move on. Not every question or inquiry will make sense, so this comes down to experimentation.

For these questions, find a moment when you feel a sense of self. Could be when trying to be perfect, or anything similar, or even just sitting, then answer the below questions.

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

[davjak]

I've been wrestling with this one for half a day now. It seems these questions are triggering a lot of thinking , and I keep finding myself lost in the weeds, like the thinking keeps painting itself into a corner. But then the realization comes that I cannot be lost in the weeds because of conditioned, impersonal thinking that arises.

Earlier today I felt a sort of disgust at the concern for appearances and a seeking to gain approval that I see running through the thread. Later I see that feeling disgust or wishing for the content to be any different from what it is, reveals identification with it, as the author of it. I see this back and forth happening, of forgetting the drama is not I and wishing for it to be this way or that, and then having the realization I am not doing what happens.

Does the sense of self have a location?

'Location' is perceived to be where experience is experienced, but I have no idea where that is. That must be what saying it feels like it's 'in the cloud' means. It means I recognize nothing in DE like coordinates to indicate location.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

When there is identification, It communicates agency, an actor performing, autonomy, standing apart.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

There were times when it felt clearly thought based, and it seemed hard to believe the innermost, most intimate thought stream was not what I am. This is still running in subtler ways. As I mentioned above, there is still the experience of recognizing or coming out of identification with what the character does.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Thought and sensation communicating entity, agent, actor performing.

What is found?

All that can ever be found is seeing, hearing feeling, tasting, smelling and thought. But this was grueling. I kept writing things and deleting. I did a lot of looking and reasoning/thinking, but I recall you said Any landing in thought is a distraction. Maybe the thinking can be like using a thorn to remove a thorn? Maybe the thinking was what got deleted and what remains is from DE. I'm too tired right now to do any more, I just want to hit submit.

[Bluejay]

All that can ever be found is seeing, hearing feeling, tasting, smelling and thought. But this was grueling. I kept writing things and deleting. I did a lot of looking and reasoning/thinking, but I recall you said Any landing in thought is a distraction. Maybe the thinking can be like using a thorn to remove a thorn? Maybe the thinking was what got deleted and what remains is from DE. I'm too tired right now to do any more, I just want to hit submit.

Any going to thinking or concepts is not the answer, no matter how much thought tries to make it so.

Thought and sensation communicating entity, agent, actor performing.

So the sense of self for you is a sensation in the body and thought, correct?

Where in the body is this sensation?

'Location' is perceived to be where experience is experienced, but I have no idea where that is. That must be what saying it feels like it's 'in the cloud' means. It means I recognize nothing in DE like coordinates to indicate location.

Are you saying you don't feel your toes or your hands?

We are just trying to discover where in your body the sense of self shows up.

[davjak]

Are you saying you don't feel your toes or your hands?

We are just trying to discover where in your body the sense of self shows up.

Oh. But this brings up a confusion for me. When are we looking for a response in conventional terms and when from DE? For instance, I don't find hands or feet in DE. I was presuming I was to look deeper than conventionality to say something about location. Obviously, I have a tendency to over think.

I would say I feel the sense of self in the head and upper torso as thought and sensation.