Anatta, Is not self: Right View

[Bluejay]

I don't see any posts after my post on October 7th (except your latest post).

I also cannot delete posts.

[Bluejay]

Haven't heard from you in a while, Nate. How are things going?

Are you still interested in this inquiry?

[Nate]

Good Evening,

Yes indeed, I want to continue, thank you. Apologies for the absence.

I clicked on the video just now, but the following message is shown: "Video unavailable. This video is private".

I hope you are well,
Regards,
N8

[Bluejay]

Hello Nate,

So what has happened since we last spoke?

Below is the text version of the pointer:

Okay, so now let's explore your answers in direct experience. And this practice you can do whenever. In fact, I recommend you do it during the day when selfing pops up.

We have direct experience, which is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling + thought.

When there is a sense of self, separate it into the senses that are involved, and inquire into each sense.

For example, let's say I feel a sense of self behind the eyes, and there's a thought 'this is me'. I would inquire:

Sense of self behind the eyes = sensation = are these sensations the self?
Thought 'this is me' = thought = is this thought the self?
Image of self behind the eyes = thought = is this image the self?

Objections will likely rise up. If so, keep inquiring into those, such as 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here'.

Thought 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here' = thought = is that thought the self?

Then maybe there's a feeling/contraction in the chest, so you inquire into that. Are those sensations the self? Where is it?

If you end up in a quiet place, rest there. Remember, no answer is the answer. There is no answer possible from thought. This needs to be felt into and repeated over and over.

[Nate]

Good Morning,

So what has happened since we last spoke?

Nothing of significance related to this journey. I was on holiday (hedonistic adventures)... it's time to get back to this...

I will start the new exercise.

Regards,
Nate

[Bluejay]

Nothing of significance related to this journey. I was on holiday (hedonistic adventures)... it's time to get back to this...

Oh really? 3 months of holidays? :)

I will start the new exercise.

Let me know how it goes!

[Nate]

Good Morning,

Oh really? 3 months of holidays? :)

Yes, without computer access, apologies for the unexpected delay.

Update on my experience with the new exercise:

I performed the inquiry approx 150 times in the last 2 days during daily activities. Results:

1. Positive Result: I can seem to clearly see your point ie no "self" is found. I was pleased with this experience and started to conclude that I had made progress, as this has somewhat changed my view on my experience of the "self" ie my "self" was diminishing, due to the repetition of the exercise and the consistency of the conclusion of "no self" found!

I was becoming clearer and clearer that my direct experience is composed of the 5 sensory inputs and the mental processing of forms, feelings, perceptions, fabrications and consciousness (awareness), with no "self" as a component. I started to have confidence that if I continued to repeat the exercise, and be faster at it, then I might finally "get it", and a shift would likely occur.

2. Set-back: However, I then asked myself: "who/what is asking myself is this question/thought the self?" Which resulted in my view being that my "self" is the thing asking the questions of eg "is this xxx the self".

Comment:

I hope you can interpret the above. In other words, although I can do the exercise repeatedly with the positive result of "no self found", when I ask myself the more advanced question (which I know is just a thought, but it appears to be a constructed thought coming from my sense of self. I hope this didn't corrupt the exercise, but it naturally occurred to me to ask myself for the sake of completeness), my sense of self became re strengthened.

Summary Conclusion:

Doing the exercise as written had positive results, and my sense of "self" was diminishing. I was accumulating small insights when no "self" was repeatedly found. However, my sense of "self" increased when my "self" asked the more advanced question of "who/what is asking the question?" ie my "self" seems to be the inquirer!

Regards,
N8

[Bluejay]

2. Set-back: However, I then asked myself: "who/what is asking myself is this question/thought the self?" Which resulted in my view being that my "self" is the thing asking the questions of eg "is this xxx the self".

Why do you automatically assume there is a self doing the inquiry?

What makes this more 'advanced' thought different from any other thought?

Look and continue to separate the senses. Is there suddenly something there controlling thoughts?

Can you suddenly predict your next thought or the next impulse?

my sense of self became re strengthened.

What is it that becomes stronger?

Sensations? Images? Sounds?

[Nate]

Good Morning,

Why do you automatically assume there is a self doing the inquiry?

That's what it feels like. It feels like it couldn't be any other way, as "I" am using analytical skills and directed mental effort to investigate, observe, assess, and conclude. There is a clear sense that "I" am the investigator (of my own experience) ie my "I" is my Sherlock Holmes. So from my point of view, I don't assume (consciously) that "there is a self doing the inquiry", but rather, that's just how it feels (quite strongly - when I am in analytical mode).

What makes this more 'advanced' thought different from any other thought?

Because it "extended" your exercise logic to include the "questioner" as well. This is a significant point, because the exercise was working until this point.

Look and continue to separate the senses. Is there suddenly something there controlling thoughts?

It seems my "non-self" is doing almost everything, however, my "self" can direct (or perhaps influence) my spaceship with applied mental effort.

Can you suddenly predict your next thought or the next impulse?

I love this question! And my full answer is complicated and multi dimensional as I think through examples. However, in brief:
- No, I cannot with precision predict my next thought nor impulse.
- However, it seems I have a partial control of the "direction" of thoughts ie start, stop, change focus, change goal, change method etc, as well as partial control of impulses eg implementing or ignoring through evaluation.

What is it that becomes stronger?

Sensations? Images? Sounds?

None of those, but the felt sense that the function of "I" is the investigator ie for an investigation into Direct Experience, there must be, and it feels like, there is an investigator, which is the "I" (me, self, controller, doer etc).

How can there be an investigation into Direct Experience, without the function of an investigatOR?
Who/what is doing the investigation? It really feels like I have an Executive Function, that I can confidently label the main part of my sense of "self"

I know some of my answers are considered incorrect. I am just being as honest and accurate as I can!

I am enjoying this process and am learning. If I wasn't so analytical, this might be easier... :D

Many Thanks,
N8

[Bluejay]

I am enjoying this process and am learning. If I wasn't so analytical, this might be easier... :D

Who knows!

That's what it feels like. It feels like it couldn't be any other way, as "I" am using analytical skills and directed mental effort to investigate, observe, assess, and conclude. There is a clear sense that "I" am the investigator (of my own experience) ie my "I" is my Sherlock Holmes. So from my point of view, I don't assume (consciously) that "there is a self doing the inquiry", but rather, that's just how it feels (quite strongly - when I am in analytical mode).

Yes, it feels like an 'I', but is it?

Inquire into this feeling and see what it is made of in direct experience. You may find images, thoughts, sensations, sounds, but where is the I or self in that?

However, it seems I have a partial control of the "direction" of thoughts ie start, stop, change focus, change goal, change method etc, as well as partial control of impulses eg implementing or ignoring through evaluation.

Starting and stopping thoughts is another impulse, is it not?

Changing focus/goal/method is also impulse/thought. Can you predict when it happens?

What seems to be happening is you differentiate between start/stop/changing focus, for example, and say there is partial control, when it is the same as any other thought or decision.

How can there be an investigation into Direct Experience, without the function of an investigatOR?
Who/what is doing the investigation? It really feels like I have an Executive Function, that I can confidently label the main part of my sense of "self"

Invert the question. How can there be an investigatOR?

Don't go into thinking and labeling and what it must be. Instead, look as if birdwatching in the forest. :)

[Nate]

Good Evening,

I have performed the exercises more in the last few days, and can report the following.

Who knows!

Good point. I withdraw my speculative and unnecessary comment! ;)

Yes, it feels like an 'I', but is it?

Inquire into this feeling and see what it is made of in direct experience. You may find images, thoughts, sensations, sounds, but where is the I or self in that?

Yes, I am seeing this with higher frequency now. I have to use my maximum Concentration and Mindfulness to observe this, and can do this many times everyday (10+). Although, it takes me mental "Effort" to tune into it, and to break through the delusion.

It seems it is a thought combined with a "feeling of ownership/control". So, it's definitely a thought, but the "feeling" component makes the thought more believable. I can collapse this many times per day, but when I don't use my Concentration/Mindfulness, I revert to the delusion. So, I am improving my perception of finding no "I", and can regularly see the Direct Perception model. I will continue this by applying my "Effort" everyday, so see if a higher frequency will help me see it more easily, and increase the duration of each seeing ie it appears that it is a new habit which needs to be formed, so that it might become the new way of seeing?

Starting and stopping thoughts is another impulse, is it not?

I agree, yes! But it appears that "I" using Effort, can create an impulse/urge to "change" the thought stream. You are pushing me into a corner where my sense of "self" is being diminished, and I thank you. So it seems my next argument is that my "effort" to change a thought is where my sense of "self" remains.

I seem to have an awareness view of thoughts and impulses which can oversee them, make an evaluation, then use Right Effort (eg stop, start, continue, override, redirect) to change the course of thoughts and impulses. So this seems to be my new version of my "self". There is a sense of overview of experience here, with control. There are auto urges, yes, but it seems I have an "overview" awareness which can exercise some control.

Changing focus/goal/method is also impulse/thought. Can you predict when it happens?

Hmmm... to some degree Yes eg an urge/thought of "this isn't working/ideal/useful" which leads to "I need to change xxxx", which I then have to construct (with Effort). I'm not clear if I can "predict" it truly (ahead of time), but I am aware of it in real time, so there is a small sense of prediction, and definitely sense of control of "self". I can also change habits, so this brings a sense of "self" and control. I can also change how fast I change a habit eg from the lazy slow way to fast and efficient.

This prediction question is tricky, and I know I haven't answered it accurately. I will further consider and collect more observations, thank you.

What seems to be happening is you differentiate between start/stop/changing focus, for example, and say there is partial control, when it is the same as any other thought or decision.

I have attempted to contemplate this deeply with my mindfulness (as best I can at the moment), and currently see a big difference between between thought streams which naturally arise, and those that I control/direct/start/stop etc. This difference is perhaps my current big issue. Any advice or exercise to examine this further would be appreciated. My strongest sense of self currently is the "effort" which can be used at will to action/ignore/override urges, as well as direct thought streams towards a goal.

Invert the question. How can there be an investigatOR?

I don't know how to answer this, except to say that the mind seems to have a function of a modelling tool, which creates mental models of experience, then can solve problems to achieve a goal. This involves investigation, and a sense that "I" am the investigatOR". This answer is linked to the above in terms of using "Effort" to "control" thoughts, and use learned methods to investigate scientifically (we hope). So I don't know "how" there can be investigatOR, but it feels like there is.

Here is an extract from wiki for Executive Functions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_functions

"In cognitive science and neuropsychology, executive functions (collectively referred to as executive function and cognitive control) are a set of cognitive processes that are necessary for the cognitive control of behavior: selecting and successfully monitoring behaviors that facilitate the attainment of chosen goals. Executive functions include basic cognitive processes such as attentional control, cognitive inhibition, inhibitory control, working memory, and cognitive flexibility. Higher-order executive functions require the simultaneous use of multiple basic executive functions and include planning and fluid intelligence (e.g., reasoning and problem-solving)."

It is this sense of being able to implement "Effort" which gives me the view of "I" which can exert some control.

Many thanks,
Nate

[Bluejay]

Nice observations!

Yes, I am seeing this with higher frequency now. I have to use my maximum Concentration and Mindfulness to observe this, and can do this many times everyday (10+). Although, it takes me mental "Effort" to tune into it, and to break through the delusion.

I will continue this by applying my "Effort" everyday, so see if a higher frequency will help me see it more easily, and increase the duration of each seeing ie it appears that it is a new habit which needs to be formed, so that it might become the new way of seeing?

Yes, like a habit takes effort. When it shifts, it will be obvious. The shift doesn't happen on an intellectual understanding level, but it's experiential.

However, it's not like you're learning something, but instead you look until something clicks. Remember when you look, the absence of an answer is the answer.

So it seems my next argument is that my "effort" to change a thought is where my sense of "self" remains.

Effort is yet another label for something that is spontaneously happening, is it not?

Effort is movement or expenditure of energy you could say. But how do you know that suddenly means there is someone in control?

Look at movement and expenditure of energy in nature.

I seem to have an awareness view of thoughts and impulses which can oversee them, make an evaluation, then use Right Effort (eg stop, start, continue, override, redirect) to change the course of thoughts and impulses. So this seems to be my new version of my "self"..

When a sensation appears, do you find two things--awareness and sensation? Or do you always only find sensation/knowing as one?

And if you find two things, where is the border between them? (be careful here not to believe a thought/image that shows you a border)

There is a sense of overview of experience here, with control. There are auto urges, yes, but it seems I have an "overview" awareness which can exercise some control

Yes, but this is also an auto urge? You cannot predict when it happens.

Your whole personality, conditioning, circumstances through life, peers, parents, and everything comes together as this awareness that can control.

Just because there is control doesn't mean there is an inherent self.

Hmmm... to some degree Yes eg an urge/thought of "this isn't working/ideal/useful" which leads to "I need to change xxxx", which I then have to construct (with Effort). I'm not clear if I can "predict" it truly (ahead of time), but I am aware of it in real time, so there is a small sense of prediction, and definitely sense of control of "self". I can also change habits, so this brings a sense of "self" and control. I can also change how fast I change a habit eg from the lazy slow way to fast and efficient.

Usually when there's a belief that a thought can be predicted, the first link in the chain hasn't been fully seen.

For example, someone might say 'Yes, I can predict my thoughts. Right now I'll think about a pink elephant.'

In the above example, what needed to be predicted is the thought that was going to predict the next one.

You can focus more on this by closing your eyes, and before a thought appears, see if you can predict it. And if there's a thought predicting it, that was the one you needed to predict.

This difference is perhaps my current big issue. Any advice or exercise to examine this further would be appreciated. My strongest sense of self currently is the "effort" which can be used at will to action/ignore/override urges, as well as direct thought streams towards a goal.

The above questions hopefully address this :)

This really can be simplified immensely to simply find this inherent self that is constantly being referred to. Find it in this moment. If there's a thought about it, that's not it.

I don't know how to answer this, except to say that the mind seems to have a function of a modelling tool, which creates mental models of experience, then can solve problems to achieve a goal. This involves investigation, and a sense that "I" am the investigatOR". This answer is linked to the above in terms of using "Effort" to "control" thoughts, and use learned methods to investigate scientifically (we hope). So I don't know "how" there can be investigatOR, but it feels like there is.

This is a lot of knowledge that you've picked up from somewhere that is now automatically being expressed.

But look in direct experience, where is the investigator?

"In cognitive science and neuropsychology, executive functions (collectively referred to as executive function and cognitive control) are a set of cognitive processes that are necessary for the cognitive control of behavior: selecting and successfully monitoring behaviors that facilitate the attainment of chosen goals. Executive functions include basic cognitive processes such as attentional control, cognitive inhibition, inhibitory control, working memory, and cognitive flexibility. Higher-order executive functions require the simultaneous use of multiple basic executive functions and include planning and fluid intelligence (e.g., reasoning and problem-solving)."

It is this sense of being able to implement "Effort" which gives me the view of "I" which can exert some control.

This is a description of something that happens. Nowhere in this do I see an inherent self.

Effort doesn't mean there is a self, nor does attentional control, inhibitory control, working memory, and so on. These are all descriptions of processes that are happening, just like the trees swaying in the wind, or a bee pollinating.

[Nate]

Good Evening,

Excellent, and thank you. I need to contemplate this. I have a vague comprehension of what you have stated, and will examine it further in my experience. I can sense my awareness expanding, so this is working. Thank you so much.

Many thanks,
Nate

[Bluejay]

Glad to hear it, Nate!

Take your time and let me know if I can help. 👍

[Nate]

Good Afternoon,

Yes, like a habit takes effort. When it shifts, it will be obvious. The shift doesn't happen on an intellectual understanding level, but it's experiential.

However, it's not like you're learning something, but instead you look until something clicks. Remember when you look, the absence of an answer is the answer.

I am doing the looking often everyday. I am starting to see it, and feel like I am getting closer, since I can more regularly and clearly see what you are saying. It seems I have many "micro-learnings" (or micro clicks), so it appears I am going in the right direction.

Effort is yet another label for something that is spontaneously happening, is it not?

Effort is movement or expenditure of energy you could say. But how do you know that suddenly means there is someone in control?

Look at movement and expenditure of energy in nature.

I have a sense of having "supervisory control", which can exercise a small amount of control/effort. I have spent the last few days looking at this, and can see the level of control/effort is smaller than I previously assumed. I shall keep looking at this.

When a sensation appears, do you find two things--awareness and sensation? Or do you always only find sensation/knowing as one?

And if you find two things, where is the border between them? (be careful here not to believe a thought/image that shows you a border)

That's a great point, and I need to practice this more it seems. I can see that awareness/sensation is mostly 1, but I seem to also have an awareness that seems separate in that it has a "time" overview perception ie an awareness of sensations as a sequence, as part of a time flow, that can also exercise what appears to be "supervisory control". Again, I shall practice this more for a few days, since it's not easy to see clearly without a high perception resolution.

Yes, but this is also an auto urge? You cannot predict when it happens.

Your whole personality, conditioning, circumstances through life, peers, parents, and everything comes together as this awareness that can control.

Just because there is control doesn't mean there is an inherent self.

YES! Well stated, thank you. I think I just had a micro-shift ie I just had a wave of "electric" sensation over my head and shoulders as I saw this more clearly! I am getting closer!

This is a lot of knowledge that you've picked up from somewhere that is now automatically being expressed.

But look in direct experience, where is the investigator?

Ok, I don't know "where" it is, but I have a sense that I can use effort, to direct my awareness "microscope" to look for things in my experience. Then the rest happens mostly automatically by my mind.

I believe I am making progress with each dialogue, so thank you.

To help me understand and clarify the "effort" part, could you please describe what/who is doing the "effort" (ie effort to have or change an intention). After I have had some micro-insights, I keep getting drawn back to this unresolved question.

Kind Regards,
Nate