who knows?

[Alless]

Good to see your message Annette,

Yes, do keep attention on direct looking and also looking at the looking itself.

I'll be on the lookout for your message on your return.

Have a fruitful retreat

With love


Alan

[Annette33]

Dear Alan
I looked and laughed! The I/me is an idea not a direct experience. There is no I in DE. And I wanting this and that is ridiculous as how can a concept actually want anything at all.

It’s a label like table. Like the label table points at something but is not the actual experience of the thing, so too I or me or you etc points to Annetteing or Alaning but is not the DE of our extraordinary lives.

After this first hit home the mind went very still for some hours. Now back home there is me thinking and me behaving re-emerging. Perhaps that’s inevitable?

I hope things care going well with ‘you’ over ‘there’.

Annette

[Alless]

I looked and laughed! The I/me is an idea not a direct experience.

Oh Annette. I can feel the joy in the laughter !!

Can you tell me about what really clicked for you, how this realisation happened?

After this first hit home the mind went very still for some hours. Now back home there is me thinking and me behaving re-emerging. Perhaps that’s inevitable?

Oh yes! Does Santa Claus disappear once you know who he is? No, he doesn't but we know who he truly is. Just an idea

The mind can kick in - and for some it can be VERY aggressive even.There can be a lot of momentum that needs to dissipate. When we get caught by the mind (which will surely happen) once we notice that we've taken a thought all we have to do is remind ourselves of the truth and there it is. Just looking again brings us back.

HOWEVER once the truth is seen, can it be unseen again?



This seeing of no "me" is just another realization in the infinity of experiencing albeit so significant. The mind is such a mystery in itself, The thoughts that we think we are conscious of is just the tip of the iceberg. But without the seeing of no self how could we possibly know the unbinding from subtler and subtler realms of the mind? This is why seeing of no self is such an imperative in this discovery of what is real and what is illusion.


Let me know in some detail how you are feeling overall right now since you are back in the day to day flow of life?




So Annette here are some possibilities .

1. We could explore the dimensions of DE a little more to help us see how thought can unwittingly trip us up. That can be very useful as we navigate the post - gate phase
2. Explore any areas / aspects of experiencing that you would like to dig into a little further
3. If you have no doubt that a separate self does not exist do you feel you are ready to plunge into what we call the final questions?

No need to rush this at all. Spending some time on 1 and 2 before we get to 3 can be very worthwhile.

Which of the 3 possibilities do you lean towards?




And also .....welcome back !!


With love


Alan

[Annette33]

Hello!

Can you tell me about what really clicked for you, how this realisation happened?

I was doing a written stream of consciousness inquiry which went like this.

‘Thinking content is a filter or block to live DE. It’s mostly about the past present or future but the content is never simultaneously with the DE. It’s tagged on or trailing just behind the DE, commenting, interpreting, recording. So thought content is not the actual experience and I only arises in thought so it is not an actual live experience.

Here is something wonderful, alive experiencing but it’s not an owned I or me because that’s made up and clearly there is something here experiencing life. But what’s experiencing life is not the content of thought. That’s like saying what is experiencing life is the taste of toffee in the mouth. It’s a sense experience that comes and goes, it’s not what is having the experience. So I’d thought content is not experiencing life and I /me only arises as thought then I cannot exist. The whole concept of i is wrong. It’s a trick. I refers to this being but is not the being. It’s a concept like sherry or table. There’s a difference between table and something tabling so to speak. Likewise there’s a difference between i and this something. I don’t know what it is (laugh).

I is a concept not real. How ridiculous! What about me? Annette is a concept. An idea, a reference point. That word me is not this live being here. This here is what? A conglomeration of elements? Arising uniquely along billions of other life forms. An enormous complexity of interconnected conditions, a web.

Is this my leg? The leg doesn’t know it’s mine. It’s labelling. Leg and mine to distinguish it from an arm and someone else’s leg!

There’s something so complex here, this aliveness, that it can’t be grasped or fully described. So me and I are shorthand ways to point to this but are not actually this. THIS is all the DE of the senses plus consciousness. Open. Anything can happen. Feels like something opening up. Liberating.

About two hours? have passed and just 2 i thoughts. Happiness. Body jiggling. No critical thoughts. Feeling light and playful. Not sleeping. Went out to see the stars. Amazing. Happiness. Out of jail - for a time.

[Annette33]

HOWEVER once the truth is seen, can it be unseen again?

No. It can be forgotten though. Through proliferation of thinking. Conditions at home bring habitual ways of behaving and habitual thought patterns. Sobering today to slot back into those. Still a background knowing at the moment anyway that I isn’t DE and being lost in I thinking is a merry go round of sorrow.

Let me know in some detail how you are feeling overall right now since you are back in the day to day flow of life?

Thank you for asking. Noticing a particular tone of voice when speaking with my partner. Very I based. Lots of i want / don’t want based speech and behaviours.
Tension in head. Things becoming less alive and lots of thinking and much less DE. Expected as the conditions have changed and also rather sad.

Glad we are carrying on. Hoping to stabilise the insight so far.

[Annette33]

Which of the 3 possibilities do you lean towards?

Hello Alan.
I’m leaning towards option one. To explore more outside of retreat conditions.
Thank you
Annette

[Alless]

Annette,

Beautiful ! Your words strike here as a heartfelt endeavor to describe the indescribable. It's not only what you say but what you know that can't be said that is felt here.

Just rest in that and let that recognition do the work.

And then at the end.

Out of jail - for a time.

I know that you know but I need to ask.

Is that not just a thought, a concept?



What happens if you simply ignore it?



Or ....... as you look at it for what it is, relaxing into - and holding it in - the light of open hearted attention.....tell me what happens?



Can you see how even a seemingly simple "throw away" thought can seduce one back it into the realm of belief?

I’m leaning towards option one. To explore more outside of retreat conditions.

Do you feel you would you like to roll on into that or do you feel the need to take a short break to let things settle a little before we do?


With love


Alan

[Annette33]

Hello Alan

Warm greetings and thank you for that affirming response.

Now that sentence:

Out of jail - for a time.
I know that you know but I need to ask.

Is that not just a thought, a concept?

What happens if you simply ignore it?

Or ....... as you look at it for what it is, relaxing into - and holding it in - the light of open hearted attention.....tell me what happens?

Well that sentence I wrote is a concept isn’t it! It doesn’t relate to here and now but a fear that arose. Not to mention that time is itself a concept. When one is present it’s timeless.

Good spot!!

Lots of old behaviours and i based conversations going on here and I’m also packing to travel to my parent’s place tomorrow.

And there’s a background knowing that wasn’t there before the retreat. Like a quiet confidence of a sort. Hard to describe. And there was an arising of an unpleasant emotion during a conversation on Saturday and I took myself off and asked who is feeling this emotion? And experienced the sensations in the knowledge that it would all pass. And it did. And there’s not been a negative mental state since.

I would like to get back to you in a few days time to carry on exploring.

With gratitude
Annette

[Alless]

I'm really interested to read what you wrote about the changes you are feeling Annette

I would like to get back to you in a few days time to carry on exploring.

Sounds good Annette. What say you let me know when you might have a clear run when you return and we'll get back to a regular rhythm.

Travel safe !


Alan

[Annette33]

Dear Alan
I’ve arrived back home and a few things come to mind. Visiting my mum is a regular event and usually there’s stress and anxiety on both sides.

This time there was about 40% less stress /anxiety my end. And less proliferation of thought trains. Also a couple of times a day there was this same awareness of a background peace. Like now. A quiet expansive perhaps infinite alive awareness.

Also some DE and hair standing on end, smiling wowness, though not so much. ‘I’ did largely forget to turn to DE.

Is there anything I can tell you about this?

I’m home until this Friday, when I’m away without signal until the Monday morning, and then around until mid December!

Best wishes
Annette

[Alless]

Lovely to hear Annette

Also a couple of times a day there was this same awareness of a background peace. Like now. A quiet expansive perhaps infinite alive awareness.

I hear you pointing to peace being undeniably felt. That there is a noticeable difference in daily life. Beautiful.

Would you say this could considered to be a shift in some way in contrast to what was happening say a few months ago?



Where does this peace come from?




And this quiet expansive infinite alive awareness.....tell me more about it especially in relation to YOU. And specifically where are YOU in all of this?



With love


Alan

[Annette33]

Hello Alan

Warm greetings

Would you say this could considered to be a shift in some way in contrast to what was happening say a few months ago?

Yes indeed! It's qualitatively different. More felt experience and less mental component.

Where does this peace come from?

well that's a great mystery! Whenever it's noticed it seems an inseparable aspect? of 'me' ie this being. And not the 'me' that is generally experienced through i thinking as being me!

if i was christian i'd probably call it god or christ. Or a guardian angel or something. as a buddhist i'd say its universal wisdom-love-energy but thats not the actual experience. It's always present and unchanging in nature. wordless. the source? i dont think it comes from anywhere. 'it' just is. Presence.

And this quiet expansive infinite alive awareness.....tell me more about it especially in relation to YOU. And specifically where are YOU in all of this?

Relaxing in that space there's no words or an occasional label word. things are seen in more detail. more clearly, more beautiful often. Like on the bus yesterday, hard to describe, but a sense of the never ending flow of things passing; the brown curled leaves on the dirty pavement, bringing the words 'ah impermanence'; a man's face in his heavy work boots, smoking, looking pallid - a sense of wondering what his life is like; the house with vivid coloured graffiti - wow; a man on the bus seeming lost in his phone. very moving. rather wonderful. Intimate. A part of it all and no owning of any of that. No i thoughts so no me as such, but this being is experiencing this. a different version of 'me' perhaps?

there's more irritation arising at ridiculous mind traps and a lot of fatigue and less sleep - have others experienced that? as there's no clear physical reason for the fatigue. There's a desire to be quiet, alone.

There's a feeling of gratitude towards you Alan as i type this. For taking this time and interest.

Love Annette

[Alless]

Oh Annette there is joy here !

Yes indeed! It's qualitatively different. More felt experience and less mental component.

Beautiful! That is what reveals freedom - this pure felt experience! Right there you point to what it is that "imprisons" us a human beings - the mental component. We've been anesthetized to the felt experience and hypnotized by the imaginary world of mental thought

well that's a great mystery! Whenever it's noticed it seems an inseparable aspect? of 'me' ie this being. And not the 'me' that is generally experienced through i thinking as being me!

if i was christian i'd probably call it god or christ. Or a guardian angel or something. as a buddhist i'd say its universal wisdom-love-energy but thats not the actual experience. It's always present and unchanging in nature. wordless. the source? i dont think it comes from anywhere. 'it' just is. Presence.

Can't but love the way you describe this. That is what we are - peace, presence. I love listening to people trying to describe the indescribable. And the recognition that so many different labels are actually pointing to the same truth. You can detect when truth is seen by the fact that whatever is said seems so inadequate to the one speaking. I can feel the "inadequacy" here !!

a different version of 'me' perhaps?

Yes, what we can definitely say is that what you are is not the version you thought yourself to be !

there's more irritation arising at ridiculous mind traps and a lot of fatigue and less sleep - have others experienced that? as there's no clear physical reason for the fatigue. There's a desire to be quiet, alone.

I understand what you mean about the "irritation arising at ridiculous mind traps"
Just sit with the irritation and see what happens.




I find that what is happening more and more here is that there is absolute amazement that that which is infinite, unknowable and indescribable can create mind constructs that have us convinced that we are something else other than what we truly are ! What a miracle. What a mystery. And what compassion we feel for others caught in this web of belief.

Having said that there are subtler and subtler self referencing mechanisms that we discover after we have seen through this big one - that there is no "me"

Regarding sleep and fatigue - this recognition affects each of us very uniquely. There is a realignment in our being that causes different reactions for different people. I note your desire to be quiet and alone. Honor this as much as you can especially by stepping back from unnecessary activity. Trust your intuition (or however you describe the "nudges" life gives you) on this. It just aids the settling into this recognition, this seeing and planting our feet on this Rock so to speak

There's a feeling of gratitude towards you Alan as i type this. For taking this time and interest.

And there is such appreciation here too for you Annette. It's such a joy to feel these shifts.

So for today ......

As already suggested Just sit with the irritation and see what happens. Is there anything to report from sitting with this?



When felt into is this irritation actually a feeling of "I don't want this" - a subtle form of resistance?



And

What would you tell someone who wonders about the truth of no-self about

How choices are made?


What controls what's happening in one's life?



With love


Alan

[Annette33]

Hello Alan
Your response brought joy. Thank you!

What would you tell someone who wonders about the truth of no-self about

How choices are made?

What controls what's happening in one's life?

Woah big questions Alan!

I’m going to take a day or two to answer.

I’ve cancelled a lot of stuff. Having quiet weekend.

Just to say to my first response to

Just sit with the irritation and see what happens. Is there anything to report from sitting with this?

Is a big smile and ‘oh yes, resistance to what it.’ How funny.

More tomorrow or possibly the following day. Don’t want to rush.
Warmest wishes
Annette

[Annette33]

Ah a typo.
Should read
‘Resistance to what is’

Ax