Natestari

[Natestari]

Hi Elad,

Thank you for your message. Back in the game today. The retreat was apparemtly full on and then i had some personal things come up which needed my full attention.

When I thought about the numbers, there was no point i knew when i knew the choice would be made, i had no say in it, some times it would happen quicker than others. I had no idea what number would be chosen and no idea when the moment of choice would be made.

With the numbers and words - the most random words started appearing - trip, fiddle, gang - as well as numbers in between. Really interesting to see that - no choice in what appears and really absolutely random!

No controller seems to make it appear, it's just happening. I can see the the mind searching though - so there was something that knew i had to put a word in rather than a number and knew it was time to change to a word if that makes sense? But it didn't know what it was. But i guess that's the feeling of choice on top of what just happened. That's what the narrator is saying over the happening after it happened. So spontaneous unfold and on top stories of choice.

[Elad]

Hi Natalie, exactly, this all feels pretty clear. Any doubts or questions you want to work on with me at this point?


If not, would you be willing to be please answer LU's questions again? You are welcome to do so short and succinct:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Natestari]

Stream Exercise - It doesn't choose it's directions and it's not a separate entitiy - it is shifting due to external forces.


I can't find anywhere where something autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow.

2. Regarding a regular decision, i.e what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, this seems to be what happens.

If i'm cold i may choose a jumper. If i feel like i'm bright i want to wear colour. If i'm low in mood i may not get out of my pj's until 12. I may walk the dogs early or they may have to wait of work needs attending to first.

What i eat depends on what is in the fridge and my level of motivation. I may wear lipstick if i'm on a zoom...and dress up more. If i'm not seeing anyone i may decide to not bother at all making an apparent effort. There isn't anything intervening, it's all a reflection of what's hapening i different areas and then there is a narrative over the top of perhaps guilt i didn't take the dogs out or that i should take them out soon - but it's all judgement over whats happening.

[Elad]

Stream Exercise - It doesn't choose it's directions and it's not a separate entitiy - it is shifting due to external forces.


I can't find anywhere where something autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow.

2. Regarding a regular decision, i.e what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, this seems to be what happens.

If i'm cold i may choose a jumper. If i feel like i'm bright i want to wear colour. If i'm low in mood i may not get out of my pj's until 12. I may walk the dogs early or they may have to wait of work needs attending to first.

What i eat depends on what is in the fridge and my level of motivation. I may wear lipstick if i'm on a zoom...and dress up more. If i'm not seeing anyone i may decide to not bother at all making an apparent effort. There isn't anything intervening, it's all a reflection of what's hapening i different areas and then there is a narrative over the top of perhaps guilt i didn't take the dogs out or that i should take them out soon - but it's all judgement over whats happening.

Yes ::))

[Natestari]

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No separate self - just an illusionary I - a sense of separation

The illusion of separate self starts in childhood, but old beliefs and projections are narrating over the present moment. It's already happened and then i give it a meaning. There isn't a decider a chooser....it happens and then i give it meaning whether it's good/bad/my fault/should have done it different etc.

How does it feel to see this? Like a bit massive phew - and that i can stop with the self flagilation.

There is no decision, intention, free will choice or control - there just feels like there is, to give the sense there is an I.
But in direct experience, it's just happening and a narrator i can notice and chose to not listen to or believe. The reality is the direct experience and not the meaning i give it. There is only pure knowing and pure consciousness.

[Elad]

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No separate self - just an illusionary I - a sense of separation

The illusion of separate self starts in childhood, but old beliefs and projections are narrating over the present moment. It's already happened and then i give it a meaning. There isn't a decider a chooser....it happens and then i give it meaning whether it's good/bad/my fault/should have done it different etc.

How does it feel to see this? Like a bit massive phew - and that i can stop with the self flagilation.

There is no decision, intention, free will choice or control - there just feels like there is, to give the sense there is an I.
But in direct experience, it's just happening and a narrator i can notice and chose to not listen to or believe. The reality is the direct experience and not the meaning i give it. There is only pure knowing and pure consciousness.

Dear Natalie, lovely, glad to hear this. At this point what we normally do, is to let three other guides review your answer to final questions, and see if there is anything they find can get clarified further for the benefit of your realization. I initiated that and other guides asked to have all your answers to final questions separately and clearly, i.e. each question separately. I suggest the two of us just look at a few specifics from the final questions first, so that after that you can put it all together and we know it's time. Okay?

Here are the aspects of the final questions I'd like to check in on with you before we go to final questions the last time.

Are there decisions, what is that?

Are there intentions, what is that?

Is there free free will, choice and control :

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Please answer every question separately!

[Natestari]

Hi Elad,

Ok, here we go:

What are decisions?

Decisions / choices happen when you are in mind/ego. So when you are in presence and peace, there are no decisions to be made....it all just happens in flow. There are no blocks and there is a sense of ease. There is nothing to decide. It feels like things come to you rather than you trying to make things happen - so a feeling of surrender.

When not in a flow state, the ego mind comes in with an idea there could be a wrong answer, or you could get it wrong and disrupts the peace. In these situations, there can be a decision from awareness to decide to do nothing until there is a place of neutrality, to take some distance and get in touch with something deeper and to let the decision come from that place, rather than the illusory 'I'. It would appear that if a decision really needs to be made, that just happened too - ie......someone about to be hit by a bus and you move them out of the way.....no decision, just happened in an instant. No thought. With relationship situations, it can feel like there are more consequences, potentiality to get it wrong, regret, guilt etc......so more narrative and feeling around whether you are doing the right thing. So more thoughts in the way.

[Natestari]

Are there intentions, what is that?

Intention appears to be something that comes from an apparent 'good place' but the word actually suggests 'in tension'....so again, coming from a place of mind rather than heart space. How could we know what is best for us or another when coming from mind? The illusionary 'I' narrating over the happening with an 'intension'. There need be no intention if we are in presence. Intension is illusionary 'I' playing God,

[Natestari]

Is there free free will, choice and control? So everything is happening, consciousness is completely free but the experience of separation is imposing it's own ideas of making decisions to retain the illusion there is control. I could reply to this question or not, my mind made the choice to reply and that also was what was happening - no matter how much deliberation.... the idea of free will/choice and control is there to give you the experience of being separate. The only decision you have is to decide whether to challenge the mind in which you are using to see with,

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

Ok, here we go:

What are decisions?

Decisions / choices happen when you are in mind/ego. So when you are in presence and peace, there are no decisions to be made....it all just happens in flow. There are no blocks and there is a sense of ease. There is nothing to decide. It feels like things come to you rather than you trying to make things happen - so a feeling of surrender.

When not in a flow state, the ego mind comes in with an idea there could be a wrong answer, or you could get it wrong and disrupts the peace. In these situations, there can be a decision from awareness to decide to do nothing until there is a place of neutrality, to take some distance and get in touch with something deeper and to let the decision come from that place, rather than the illusory 'I'. It would appear that if a decision really needs to be made, that just happened too - ie......someone about to be hit by a bus and you move them out of the way.....no decision, just happened in an instant. No thought. With relationship situations, it can feel like there are more consequences, potentiality to get it wrong, regret, guilt etc......so more narrative and feeling around whether you are doing the right thing. So more thoughts in the way.

Hi Nat, lets clarify this a bit further. It might SEEM like decisions happen when you are in mind/ego and that there can be "a decision from awareness" to do nothing. But is it true? Or is it in reality ALL just flow? The mind can put ideas on top of decision being made, by mind or by awareness, but in direct experience it is seen that everything happens spontaneously, even the stories on top of decisions, choice, responsiblity, etc.

[Elad]

Are there intentions, what is that?

Intention appears to be something that comes from an apparent 'good place' but the word actually suggests 'in tension'....so again, coming from a place of mind rather than heart space. How could we know what is best for us or another when coming from mind? The illusionary 'I' narrating over the happening with an 'intension'. There need be no intention if we are in presence. Intension is illusionary 'I' playing God,

Also here, is there ever really an intention of a self? Or is it just ideas, stories, that by themselves happen spontaneously? Does intention exist as anything else then a belief on top of a flow that happen by itself?

[Elad]

Is there free free will, choice and control? So everything is happening, consciousness is completely free but the experience of separation is imposing it's own ideas of making decisions to retain the illusion there is control. I could reply to this question or not, my mind made the choice to reply and that also was what was happening - no matter how much deliberation.... the idea of free will/choice and control is there to give you the experience of being separate. The only decision you have is to decide whether to challenge the mind in which you are using to see with,

This deserves more looking into. Do "you" really have any decision weather to challange the mind or not? Or is it rather that there is no you, except as an idea/belief, and there is no choice at all. When it spontaneously happening to challange the mind it is happening. When it is spontaneously not happening it is not happening. There is no you or choice in any of that. A choice is just a thought, a story, on top. What do you see in direct experience or is it not fully clear?

Is there any free will at all, or is there just the whole functioning, and the whole functioning is beyond concepts like free will or determinism, those are just stories we put on top.

You can go back to the numbers exercise or the river exercise to invesitgate this, if needed.

[Natestari]

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Responsible for nothing.....absolutely everything, even apparent decisions are happening the way the are because there is no way it could be any other way.

[Natestari]

So in relation to all this.....

There is an idea there is free will and that decisions can be made but there isn't really. As you say, it's all just in flow. I have no decision whether to challenge the mind, I just think I do. There is no choice at all. It's just the whole functioning and the stories we put on top.

Regarding the intention.....I see that things can be happening and I'll have an idea to make it happen whilst I'm on my way. So....."I think I'll go to the toilet"..... (whilst I'm half way there unzipping my jeans😂). The thought/intention comes after. Flow is happening by itself.

[Elad]

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Responsible for nothing.....absolutely everything, even apparent decisions are happening the way the are because there is no way it could be any other way.

Right. Now look if you see that in direct experience even the idea of the intention or choice or challenge of awareness is only a story. What we can see in direct experience is just flow. Intention and choice of awareness is ideas/beliefs imposed on top of the flow. What is direct experience showing you?