Clearing doubts and Resistance and directing seeing

[Elad]

Here is an exercise to further confirm the seeing:


Think of a number between 1 and 53. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared? Did you decide the moment of choice? Do it several times.

Now do a whole sequence, numbers and words, something like this:

14, 34, 2, 15, bum, funny, 3, happy, sad, love, lucy, 2, 3, 17

Be still and attentive between a new number/word appearing. Is there a controller or chooser that makes it appear? There might be the experience of themes in the words, or numbers, etc. Also if that happens, is there a separate self/doer/chooser that made exactly this theme appear now? Is there any choice happening really, or is there a spontaneous unfold and on top stories of choice?

Write to me what you see.

[Villosa]

Hi, Elad,

I think there is a seeing but perhaps not a clear seeing. There are times when it seems quite clear in meditation but only for a short while. There are times when is seems like things are happening by themselves, while I am interacting with people etc.It has given sense to a feeling of lightness and spaciousness but often it feels somewhat dysphoric and disassociated. not disassociated in a panicked traumatized way but just this is a bit weird. So i would say that I have seen that but its not stable and deep, perhaps. I've just noticed that you sent a message yesterday, so I will go onto that.

[Elad]

Hi, Elad,

I think there is a seeing but perhaps not a clear seeing. There are times when it seems quite clear in meditation but only for a short while. There are times when is seems like things are happening by themselves, while I am interacting with people etc.It has given sense to a feeling of lightness and spaciousness but often it feels somewhat dysphoric and disassociated. not disassociated in a panicked traumatized way but just this is a bit weird. So i would say that I have seen that but its not stable and deep, perhaps. I've just noticed that you sent a message yesterday, so I will go onto that.

Awaiting your writing on the exercise.

Regarding this last message from you:

What in direct experience tells you the seeing is not clear? If you focus on direct experience, what is directly experienced, not stories and beliefs, that shows the seeing is not clear? Is there anything at all?

This "dysphoric and disassociated weird" quality, again, where or what is that in direct experience? What if anything in direct experience tells you that whatever is really there is opposed to clear seeing?

Comparisons and expectations only hinder this direct inquiry. Only relevant thing in this context is what is directly seen now.

[Villosa]

regarding the exercise
There is no chooser of the thoughts as they arise. There is the story of choice and a sense of being the possessor of the thoughts. A sense that the thoughts are familiar, owned by me. The absence of the chooser is noticed when I pay close attention and drops back to the default 'feeling of choice ' when not paying close attention. Maybe I need to do the exercise more ?

[Villosa]

There is nothing in direct experience that demonstrates the seeing is not clear. However direct seeing seems to take a lot of energy and concentration and in the absence of that the default of thoughts telling me that there is a me or that I am the owner / generator of thoughts takes center stage.

[Elad]

There is nothing in direct experience that demonstrates the seeing is not clear. However direct seeing seems to take a lot of energy and concentration and in the absence of that the default of thoughts telling me that there is a me or that I am the owner / generator of thoughts takes center stage.

Hi Ben, this is all very clear. Yes, it takes real wanting to and attending to what is to see truth, and there is a lot of habit energy to be in selfing/thought identified mode. All this is normal. Can you see that this pattern happens without self or doer or chooser? No one to blame and no one to save. Just habitual mode of functioning without self or doer?

In direct experience, not thought, is there any doubt at all that there is no self or doer or separation?

[Villosa]

Hi Elad,

I find this difficult to answer. There are definitely times when attention is in sensory experience when there is no reference to a self. These are very short experiences. There is no chooser or doer in these experiences. Experience in this sense is direct. When I choose a number I can see that in direct experience it just appears. followed by an owner of the experience. There is tendency to dismiss this direct experience as the sense of self looms up and takes the attention. I have spent some time on this, several hours. i don't seem to get more clarity. I am wondering whether I have enough power of attention. whether I need to gain some other skill like concentration or whether i need to do a lot more of it. So I could say that in direct experience there is no chooser when I look but the chooser persists, bouncing in straight away. This chooser contradicts and dismisses direct experience, clouding it over straight away.

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

I find this difficult to answer. There are definitely times when attention is in sensory experience when there is no reference to a self. These are very short experiences. There is no chooser or doer in these experiences. Experience in this sense is direct. When I choose a number I can see that in direct experience it just appears. followed by an owner of the experience. There is tendency to dismiss this direct experience as the sense of self looms up and takes the attention. I have spent some time on this, several hours. i don't seem to get more clarity. I am wondering whether I have enough power of attention. whether I need to gain some other skill like concentration or whether i need to do a lot more of it. So I could say that in direct experience there is no chooser when I look but the chooser persists, bouncing in straight away. This chooser contradicts and dismisses direct experience, clouding it over straight away.

There is no chooser that persists. There is just a return af habitual stories with an habitual character in the stories.

Evaluating and thinking about if the character Ben has enough concentration is a way to engage the story, like an addiction. If you wanna meditate and concentrate, do it, rather then thinking about the character.

See that the return of the stories and character happens by itself, just like the rest.

Sit and make a mark on paper every time a thought or movement or anything happens that is without self or doer. See that actually that is all. See that the stories about character happen without chooser or doer. You are not choosing or doing any of it.

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

I find this difficult to answer. There are definitely times when attention is in sensory experience when there is no reference to a self. These are very short experiences. There is no chooser or doer in these experiences. Experience in this sense is direct. When I choose a number I can see that in direct experience it just appears. followed by an owner of the experience. There is tendency to dismiss this direct experience as the sense of self looms up and takes the attention. I have spent some time on this, several hours. i don't seem to get more clarity. I am wondering whether I have enough power of attention. whether I need to gain some other skill like concentration or whether i need to do a lot more of it. So I could say that in direct experience there is no chooser when I look but the chooser persists, bouncing in straight away. This chooser contradicts and dismisses direct experience, clouding it over straight away.

There is no chooser that persists. There is just a return af habitual stories with an habitual character in the stories.

Evaluating and thinking about if the character Ben has enough concentration is a way to engage the story, like an addiction. If you wanna meditate and concentrate, do it, rather then thinking about the character.

See that the return of the stories and character happens by itself, just like the rest.

Sit and make a mark on paper every time a thought or movement or anything happens that is without self or doer. See that actually that is all. See that the stories about character happen without chooser or doer. You are not choosing or doing any of it.

Ps. Everything you describe is very relatable. Notice how there can either be stories of reactivity, resistance, doubt and dissatisfaction in response to that, or there can be a moment of attending to the way all is by itself.

[Elad]

Also, after the other exercise and pointers, do this one:

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.
Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes
to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its
directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Ben' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[Villosa]

Hi Elad,
With regards to the first exercise. it is seen that everything arises without the a chooser and the stories about the character arise by themselves even though the sense/thought of the character takes ownership afterwards.

Exercise 2
1. I can see that there is not a chooser separate from the stream of events and circumstances though there is a separate apparent chooser as part of the stream. This is observed as i go about my activities. Though it is seen its not abundantly clear.
2. All the choices I make happen in response to the circumstances and past conditions. A sense of choice also arises. There is no real intervention by an autonomous entity referred to as Ben. there is apparently but not in direct experience.
3 There are still things I feel responsible for. Survival and duty to others.

[Elad]

Hi Ben, great this is very clear. As you seem to see the key element here is to really pay attention to what is, to see, as opposed to when attention is all lost in thinking. Any expectations to how awaking and seeing no self will be are thoughts and really get in the way. Here is another exercise to work with that:


Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as
that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can
keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self -
just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.
Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What else is SEEN?

[Elad]

Ps. Regarding responsible: feeling responsible in the sense of caring is just natural and doesn't go away. However, in a more literal sense, is there in fact a you that is responsible for anything, are "you" literally responsible for anything? Don't answer with your beliefs or wishes or fears or convictions. Look, what do you really see??

[Villosa]

The sense of self has a location behind the eyes. The shape is an amorphous blob that changes shape and moves around a bit like a cloud. It is an earthy yellow colour, quite light and sometimes shines/glows. There is sense of tension behind the eyes in the head where this blob is. Though on inspection this tension is only around the eyes and sides of the nose, not inside the head. When I look at what is observing it a secondary smaller darker blobby sense of self appears set back towards the back of my head. This is also an image like the first sense of self. The sense of self does not do anything it is a reference point like an anchor for my thoughts. When I have although there is quick reference to the self as if anchoring the thought in place and affirming it. There can be a flickering of attention from thought to sense of self giving the sense that the thought is connected to the sense of self. The sense of self doesn't do anything or communicate. It seems to serve as an anchor and as an affirmative grounding reference point.

[Elad]

The sense of self has a location behind the eyes. The shape is an amorphous blob that changes shape and moves around a bit like a cloud. It is an earthy yellow colour, quite light and sometimes shines/glows. There is sense of tension behind the eyes in the head where this blob is. Though on inspection this tension is only around the eyes and sides of the nose, not inside the head. When I look at what is observing it a secondary smaller darker blobby sense of self appears set back towards the back of my head. This is also an image like the first sense of self. The sense of self does not do anything it is a reference point like an anchor for my thoughts. When I have although there is quick reference to the self as if anchoring the thought in place and affirming it. There can be a flickering of attention from thought to sense of self giving the sense that the thought is connected to the sense of self. The sense of self doesn't do anything or communicate. It seems to serve as an anchor and as an affirmative grounding reference point.

Is 100% clear that this "sense of self" in fact is just a combination of thoughts and sensations, in no way really "you"? Does "you" refer to any real self at all?

Try this exercise:

Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centred in the head.
What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centred in the head.

Before the apple disappears….

…imagine a canary centred in the head, tweeting away.

Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)….

…imagine a 'me' centred in the head.

Stay with it…

…imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it…

…imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.

Give it a go, see what happens, describe what is seen.