I need help seeing through the illusory I with clarity

[Vit1]

...OK Stacy, here is the apple one...

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? Thought describe nothing really, they are a sign post / a symbol of a real object of/experience

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? No real "apple" here, only redness experience + overlayed thoughts signposting round, shiny, spots, apple

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience? no, apple can't be found in direct experience, it is added later, as content of thought, it's 3 degrees separated from AE/DE, first redness experience, than thought, then apple as content of thought, then "me " thinking

However, is an apple actually known? No, even when I pick up an apple, DE is only of cold sensation around fingers, apple label is above and beyond /after direct experience.

[Anastacia42]

Okay. All of that is true

How does it FEEL to SEE this?

Loving,

[Vit1]

It feels lighter in the body to see the label vs experience disconnect, and yet now there is a lot of tension in the head, seemingly from lots of thoughts being in conflict with one another and arguing away etc..

[Anastacia42]

Truth is light, expansive, relaxed.
Lies are tense, contraction, heavy

When you see the truth of no "apple" or no "self" you relax

Then as your mind goes into lying, it is tense & confused.

[Vit1]

Yes, and I've been looking at the tension in the head some more between yesterday and this morning.

No much to report from yesterday but while sitting this morning I saw clearly that noticing just is (definitely no noticer there or needed). The feeling behind the eyes associated with the cloud of unformed thoughts, and the sense of I are clearly linked (is the sense of I just that specific body feeling? Or that plus the thought arising?). When looking at thinking a bit more closely, I saw that thinking is occurring on its own and Awareness is not thinking (that's a first here and was seen quite clearly!). Every single thought (I or no I) is simply noticed. Any suggestions on where to proceed from here? Thanks!!!

[Anastacia42]

thinking is occurring on its own and Awareness is not thinking

Yay! Yes!

Try this pointer:

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

You don't have to do them again, but LOOK. What do they point to? [/color]

Loving,

[Vit1]

Hi Stacy, here goes. I just want to note first that in the first part of the exercise I limited the seeing (FEELING) to the physical sensation of self, and later it somewhat expanded to other senses. Please let me know if I didn't do it correctly.

Does the sense of self have a location? Yes, area behind the eyes, slightly above the entrance to the esophagus.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size? No shape nor form.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything? No, said physical sensation in the head does not say or communicate anything

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? Tension, tightness, pressure, contraction, inherent sense of pushing away from?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought? The head sensation described above + the sound/thought "me"

What is found? The head sensation described above + the sound/thought "me"

[Anastacia42]

You say that sense of self includes:

Tension, tightness, pressure, contraction, inherent sense of pushing away from?

And what did you recently learn about this?

Look at your answer last Friday about this same Sensation.

Loving,

[Vit1]

Hey Stacy, I learnt that this tension (associated with feeling of I) is only a feeling in the body, and that any seemingly associated thought is a label that does not refer to it directly. I sat with this nearly 3 hours today and despite all the effort I have nothing else to say, sorry, aside from the fact that there is more confusion now that when starting the sitting. Feels like hitting a wall over and over and not being able to go past past it or around it.

[Anastacia42]

Sorry about the wall. You must be relaxed to SEE.

From Thursday, August 10th, this is what you learned about tension:

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.


3 hours of tension aren't helpful, but 5 minutes of relaxing might help.

Keep doing ButtChair & write each day what is SEEN & FELT.

Loving,

[Vit1]

Hi Stacy, while driving today there were longish stretches of clarity in seeing, the hands were moving the steering and changing gears, feet pushing pedals, noticing thoughts, seeing road and cars etc... Things just happening on their own really. Overall the driving felt relaxed.

However, work at the computer during the day feels very sticky, easy to become the occasional anger (thought identification + emotion of anger) at unnecessary paperwork, and other silly bureaucratic things like that.

Can I ask of the belief in I/me can get eroded little by little or is it all done in one hit, so to speak?

Thanks again for your time. Vito

[Anastacia42]

Didn't I share these?

It won't be 24/7. There's likely to.be a "honeymoon period," and then what we call, "got it, lost it," as untrue beliefs come up to be questioned.

Watch this, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Loving,

[Vit1]

Yes you did share those already, thanks for the reminder. Today has been a mixed bag, like yesterday I've experienced stretches of clarity mixed with longer stretches of being caught up in thought. Will keep looking and noticing...

[Anastacia42]

Good. Keep looking. Keep checking in.

I might offer other pointers, but if in doubt, do ButtChair.

Loving,

[Vit1]

A couple of days ago, the question: does "me" refer to the thinker? came up, and I've been looking at that in the past few days.

This morning while doing the usual butt/chair time:) the following bits were seen. The "me" label is a ghost thief attaching itself at the tail end of nearly every experience. The moment to moment known / each experience creates or reflects a "knower" to it - which is the "me" label (a ghost, really). The label creation may just be an automatic pattern? This knower/me is the thing we believe being "the self" behind, and directing/authoring any action/experience.

(Hope I am in the right direction with this type of noticing or do I need a steer? Just want to make sure I'm not going off track.)

Also, while looking at the seemingly continuous sense of me/self, I noticed it rises and falls, it is not really continuous, rather each thought fades and another one rises nearly at the same time giving the illusion of self continuity, which makes things super sticky. Today was probably the clearest seeing of this, as of yet.
In moments of tension this is nearly impossible to see as thoughts are replacing each other super fast.

Also noticed that when emotions come up, the self sense is very intense almost fused with/at one with the emotion experience. That (emotion-self) feels much harder to disentangle and see through. Any suggestions on this one point?

Thanks again for your time and patience, Stacy.