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Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:16 am
by MichaelHen
What is the experience of 'my'?
What is 'my' referring to? Something real?
"My" is a thought, including the thought that if the body is injured, "I" will feel pain. The "my" is referring to sensations in the body, tingling or buzz, that a thought says are "mine" but it now seems clear that they are just sensations - the "my" is not real since the body buzz is no more mine than the sensation of noise from the ceiling fan.
Are 'you' in the body, or is the 'body' an internal representation? (this is easier with eyes closed)
Not quite sure what you mean by internal representation. I can experience the sensations in the body, but that doesn't put me in the body any more than the noise from the ceiling fan puts me inside that. With my eyes closed I sense sensations, tingling and sounds, floating in a huge space without inside and outside.
You already saw that you don't control thoughts, so who or what is thinking?
And based on the above, where is the self in all that?
I now realize that I don't know who thinks. Consequently, there is no self in it all ... this is seen, but it is very hard to not fall back into habitual thinking and the "self" reality ... feels a bit like learning a new counter-intuitive skill ..
Does the self exist outside of thinking?
I am beginning to see that it does not.
What does 'my' mean in this context if thoughts and decisions are simply arising?
It is a meaningless habit - but seemingly a hard one to let go of :) ... and exciting to explore the implications which are not yet clear to me, perhaps because the understanding is not yet fully formed ..

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:23 am
by Bluejay
Not quite sure what you mean by internal representation. I can experience the sensations in the body, but that doesn't put me in the body any more than the noise from the ceiling fan puts me inside that. With my eyes closed I sense sensations, tingling and sounds, floating in a huge space without inside and outside.
It sounds like you got it, but another way of putting this is to explore just the head.

Is your internal world in your head, or is your head in your internal world?
It is a meaningless habit - but seemingly a hard one to let go of :) ... and exciting to explore the implications which are not yet clear to me, perhaps because the understanding is not yet fully formed ..
How will you know when the understanding is fully formed?

Who would understand this? What would claim the understanding?

Imagine that you take a slice of lemon and bite into it. Really feel what it tastes like. Sourness. How do you let go of the lemon?

I now realize that I don't know who thinks. Consequently, there is no self in it all ... this is seen, but it is very hard to not fall back into habitual thinking and the "self" reality ... feels a bit like learning a new counter-intuitive skill ..
Since the self is a belief, like any belief there may be the habit of going back to it. Kind of like if you for 20 years worked as a janitor and you always had your keys in your right pocket, then you retire and you don't need keys anymore, but the hand keeps going to the right pocket.

When it comes to the 'self', it's seeing that there is absolutely no controller, doer, feeler, hearer of anything.

These two videos may be relevant:

You may find these two videos interesting:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:15 pm
by MichaelHen
Is your internal world in your head, or is your head in your internal world?
The sensations of my head is in my internal world, or inside of much expanded me ... would it not be correct to say that everything is inside of me?
How will you know when the understanding is fully formed?
Who would understand this? What would claim the understanding?
Thank you for these excellent questions ... I don't know the answer and I can see that I probably never will ..
Imagine that you take a slice of lemon and bite into it. Really feel what it tastes like. Sourness. How do you let go of the lemon?
"You" can't ... it'll go by itself ..?
When it comes to the 'self', it's seeing that there is absolutely no controller, doer, feeler, hearer of anything.
Thank you for this summary:) which is beginning to make sense to me ... and for the video links ...

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:30 pm
by Bluejay
The sensations of my head is in my internal world, or inside of much expanded me ... would it not be correct to say that everything is inside of me?
Yes, you could say that, because where is the hearing heard, the seen seen, the sensations felt?

Even what is seen at a distance is seen 'here'. The distance itself is part of the image.
Thank you for these excellent questions ... I don't know the answer and I can see that I probably never will ..
Glad you enjoyed them!

Yes, it's a mystery :)

How does it feel to see this?
"You" can't ... it'll go by itself ..?
The question mark at the end can sometimes signify that thinking is trying to guess, so see if you can look again. Imagine the lemon, and then pay attention to 'letting go' of it.

Is there a letting goER needed?

And a few broader questions:

What are 'you' in control of?

What is the 'self' doing that is independent from the rest of life?

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:14 pm
by MichaelHen
How does it feel to see this?
It feels like a calm spaciousness has opened up. In the background there is a desire to figure it out but it is dwarfed by the silence.
Is there a letting goER needed?
No ... sensations come and go by themselves.
What are 'you' in control of?
Nothing ... mind boggling and completely incomprehensible.
What is the 'self' doing that is independent from the rest of life?
It seems that the self is life itself ... an enormous burden is lifted of ones shoulders because no direction of the show is possible ..

Right now I feel a great deal of gratitude to you for patiently helping to facilitate this. Thank you.

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:50 pm
by Bluejay
Nothing ... mind boggling and completely incomprehensible.

It seems that the self is life itself ... an enormous burden is lifted of ones shoulders because no direction of the show is possible ..

Right now I feel a great deal of gratitude to you for patiently helping to facilitate this. Thank you.
Happy to help!

We have some final questions we like to ask to wrap things up to make sure nothing is missed.

Would you like to answer them or is there something else you want to explore?

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 2:19 pm
by MichaelHen
Would you like to answer them or is there something else you want to explore?
I am sure that there will definitely be some things I would want to explore further once this settles, but don't know what yet ... the videos gave some pointers but not sure how this might apply to me. Perhaps the questions you mention could be helpful in that respect so let's go ahead.

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 2:22 pm
by Bluejay
All right. Here you go. Just answer from your own experience as best you can.

And yes, this is just the beginning, so there is more to come as this sinks in, if the urge is there to look further.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:43 am
by MichaelHen
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion is that there is a separate self that thinks, makes decisions, feels, etc., i.e. a permanent actor that "does" all these things while remaining more or less constant over time. The foundation stones are laid in early in life when the body is given a name and parents and others treat the baby as an individual who can chart their own destiny through effort and planning. This feeling of being an individual able to control what happens becomes completely ingrained through repetitive thought patterns (my body, my life, my toys, my car, my views, my accomplishments …) which obscure direct perception of the flow of life and create and reinforce the illusion of an independent self ... when things don't go according to plan it is taken to be because not enough or the wrong effort is made by the individual … the notion that the individual doesn’t exist would be considered crazy. I can now recall from my own childhood how at the age of 6-8 I slowly began to feel pressure building to become successful at school and in other areas of life which meant that “I“ had to make an effort to ensure a successful outcome. Prior to that transition I remember being largely happy and carefree often spending long periods looking at colors and other intriguing things, not thinking about anything in particular, and quite frequently experiencing expansion of self when falling asleep at night.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The fact of the absence of a self is still coming and going, but has introduced a greater sense of calm, space and relaxation. Seems like there is more freedom to observe and relax without having to react. Prior to the dialogue I was very occupied by thinking and figuring things out … thinking is still very much there but there is a more objective observation of the thought process, less identification with it … and at times great joy in suddenly seeing that there is no-one actually thinking but that it is just rolling along without any problems and life continues, but with a profound difference. Last night for example, I was sitting with a group of people and there was much less projection of ideas onto the situation, and much more space for things to unfold in a peaceful and enjoyable way.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


A couple of ideas from the dialogue seemed particularly eye opening … the suggestion that what seems like continuity of thought might just be another thought was revelatory … the hand turning exercise which initially seemed pretty far out was useful when I couldn’t find the instigator of the turning .. and finally the pointer to the fact that there will never be anyone to confirm the insight was a useful jolt since my default is to find an explanation and helped a relaxation into a spaciousness within which the thought process and search was present but the context had changed.
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Even before this exercise I have had a hunch that what seemed like major decisions (marriage, education, interest in “spiritual” matters, career..) and smaller more mundane day to day decisions sort of made themselves without much planning or direct input from me and that everything had worked very well despite a limited input from “me”. The exercise has suddenly explained this hunch completely … there was no me all along.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
I have been interested in “spiritual” enquiry since my early 20s (I am now late 60s) … I have often intuited that this overpowering interest was more that “spirituality” was taking an interest in “me” than the other way around … I now see that it has been a longing to explore the nature of the “me” without realizing I was looking for my own absence. Does this make sense?


Describe free will & give examples from experience.
I hope the above examples address this .. I don’t have free will since I don’t exist … but choices are made … by no-one … or perhaps by life itself.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
One very topical example here could be the “decisions” made in my ending up in this dialogue … as mentioned above I have a long standing interest in spiritual enquiry and have of course come across anatta and many other references to the absence of self but have never really been able to penetrate below the a conceptual understanding. However, last week I found a book on my shelf from the 90s by someone I liked at lot back then called Burt Jurgen’s … I decided to see if I could track him down and perhaps talk to him … however, my search didn’t yield any results, he seemed to have disappeared, but in the process I found reference to a large number of websites one of which was LU and I picked a video at random with Ilona Ciunite which struck a chord and I made contact etc. Anyway, it is pretty clear that this serendipitous process was an unfolding rather than a directed process, and certainly not by “me” in a narrow sense.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
The above gives some examples.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
The truth is I don’t know … I am reminded of the old saying, the Lord works in mysterious ways … life unfolds.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
While the me doesn’t exist, life will present situations where responsibility is obviously needed … responsibility for children, ones own and others welfare etc. My mother’s husband passed away last year and left her depressed and bereaved … I have been doing what I can to help and support her … it’s just what the situation called for.
6) Anything to add?
I feel delighted at the latest turn that life has taken … it is about as intersting as anything could be … while nothing has changed, everything has changed and will no doubt keep changing.
It is still early days and I hope to be able to stay in touch and benefit from Henri's and others experience … and would of course appreciate any comments or feedback on what has been written.

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:48 am
by Bluejay
Thanks Michael!

I'll now share the answers with other guides and see if they have any feedback or questions.

I'll be back soon :)

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:09 am
by Bluejay
One question on the following:
I hope the above examples address this .. I don’t have free will since I don’t exist … but choices are made … by no-one … or perhaps by life itself.
Question: Are there really "choices", "decisions" that "life" makes, or is it a figure of speech?

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:17 am
by MichaelHen
Are there really "choices", "decisions" that "life" makes, or is it a figure of speech?
You are right of course ... It is indeed a figure of speech ... there are no decisions ever made, nor do decisions even exist ... life unfolds as a continuous process and to call any particular part of the tapestry a decision is like identifying a wave in the ocean as a wave rather than as the ocean waving ...

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:06 am
by Bluejay
Thank you, Michael!

There were no more questions. We are done here.

You will be contacted by the admin shortly and receive links to resources.

You can also always PM me here on the forum or email me through the forum if you want to reach out, ask questions, or anything like that.

If you want to continue this journey, I recommend checking out: https://www.simplytheseen.com/start-here.html

It was a pleasure guiding you :)

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 1:26 pm
by MichaelHen
Thank you very much Henri for your patience. How would I email you at a later stage? What is your email address? .. and what does it mean to PM? Sorry for my ignorance ..:)

Warm wishes, Michael.

Re: Going beyond the story of me

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 1:30 pm
by Bluejay
Here to the right of my post you see my image and forum name. Under that you see "Contact". If you click on the icon to the right, you can choose a forum private message (left icon) or email (right icon).