can’t seem to go any deeper …

[warissem]

Hi Aletheia

Here we are again.

The sense of “me” tries to claim consciousness/awareness - that’s what was noticed in meditation.
It thinks “if I shine MY consciousness onto this thought, then I can be free from it.” But I can see the fundamental error in perception there, in claiming consciousness.

No no, it is a distraction from looking at direct experience. All what is said above is a train of thoughts, do you see clearly this? Do you see how the illusion is operating, with subtlety ?

I also noticed more clearly how the sense of me-ness or “I” is a filter, a lens, or even like a layer of virtual reality over life. Yet the awareness of it comes and goes through the day, resulting in the I saying, “I’m not doing well enough, I’m failing at this.” But then your words about relaxing come up.

The same as above. How can a thought or sensation say something?
When you have already seen that thoughts are coming from nowhere, is there an entity behind the concept “I” ?
Is there someone saying “I”?
Is there a you to whom thoughts are speaking ?

The sense of self I noticed arises as a thought typically, then followed by an emotion or sensation. It can be so tricky to pin down because it’s an amalgamation of many things, a deeply ingrained pattern.

Yes, it could be a sense of self but you know that it is a thought + sensation. Discard the thought “sense of self” and look at the sensations : what is the sensation which is for you “the sense of self” ? Try to locate it : scan the body, is it in my feet, in my chest, in my head, etc …

Best wishes

[Aletheia]

Afternoon Warissem,

Are you a thinker ? Is there a thinker ?

Is a sense of self (which is a thought and/or a sensation) a thinker?

No, thoughts just arise when they arise. There is no thinker when explored from direct experience, yet the “I” takes ownership of these thoughts. Thoughts are totally spontaneous.

A sense of self can’t be the thinker because thoughts arise spontaneously, just as everything does, so therefore how can the sense of self claim the thoughts? The sense of self might believe it is a thinker, but that’s just another thought that it couldn’t control. :)

That is all for now, I will come back with comments on what you said about the sense of self.

Okay 👍

Thanks!

[Aletheia]

Back again, I just noticed you responded a second time. I will respond a little later after reflecting on what you’ve said.

[warissem]

Good morning

No, thoughts just arise when they arise. There is no thinker when explored from direct experience, yet the “I” takes ownership of these thoughts. Thoughts are totally spontaneous.

yes, thoughts arise and there is no thinker. How about this "I", is it not a thought among thoughts ? Is not ownership of thoughts or whatever another thought ? Look and see.

A sense of self can’t be the thinker because thoughts arise spontaneously, just as everything does, so therefore how can the sense of self claim the thoughts?

How can a thought or a sensation claim something ?

The sense of self might believe it is a thinker, but that’s just another thought that it couldn’t control. :)

How can a thought or a sensation believe something ?

Do you see the illusion in all this thought stories about a sense of self or an I ?

Waiting for your insights

Best for you

[Aletheia]

Good morning Warissem,

There’s a lot to sort through in the previous messages, so I’ll try to focus on some key areas to not make it too overwhelming and complicated:

How can a thought or sensation say something?

Thoughts speak don’t they? There are words that pop up in the mind, sometimes whole fictional conversations occur in the mind. And a sensation conveys information that the mind interprets, so it doesn’t speak, because that’s what thoughts do, they chatter on in the mind. That’s why I don’t understand why you say “how can a thought say something” because thoughts do say something.

When you have already seen that thoughts are coming from nowhere, is there an entity behind the concept “I” ?
Is there someone saying “I”?
Is there a you to whom thoughts are speaking ?

Although I have seen that thoughts come from nowhere, I’m honestly still struggling to see the “I” as a thought. This is very difficult for me to do, even in quiet meditation, resulting in a feeling of being a failure and frustration.

I can notice aspects of the “I” - like internal memories, pictures of my face, recognition of my name, and a feeling of contracted energy. But I quite simply haven’t got that “aha!” moment yet.

Discard the thought “sense of self” and look at the sensations : what is the sensation which is for you “the sense of self” ? Try to locate it : scan the body, is it in my feet, in my chest, in my head, etc …

To answer your question, the sensation which is for me the “sense of self” is a feeling of contracted energy in the head region. It feels like a clenched fist or a tightness. That’s what the “I” feels like to me on a sensory level.

It feels very sticky and often all-consuming - like, I can only ever see anything from the perspective of a colored lens that I’ve been wearing my whole life, that I don’t know how it got there, or how to even remove it. Sometimes the lens drops for a few moments, but mostly it comes back up again.

There is an awareness of this lens of “I”, but the space between awareness and the identification with the lens feels very minuscule.

I go throughout the day trying to notice the sense of “I” and I can see that it feels like a contraction, plus there are memories and ideas associated with it. But nothing seems to be budging or clicking. Maybe I’m just being too impatient or not understanding properly.

I appreciate your time and help.

Thank you

[warissem]

Good morning

Thoughts speak don’t they?

Is a thought a subject which is speaking OR a thought is just arising : it is noticed like a cloud is noticed?

There are words that pop up in the mind, sometimes whole fictional conversations occur in the mind.

Yes. What is the mind in your own words?

And a sensation conveys information that the mind interprets, so it doesn’t speak, because that’s what thoughts do, they chatter on in the mind. That’s why I don’t understand why you say “how can a thought say something” because thoughts do say something.

Instead of what you wrote, let’s try this : there is a sensation. There is an interpretation about the sensation. There is chattering. Does it sound good?

There is a need to look again at thoughts and SEE what is going on. Is there a thought speaking?
Or there are thoughts coming one after the other ?
Go back to the exercise about thoughts and practice it till you see clearly the answers. It is a great pointer to work with.

You have missed these questions of the previous post : look at each pointer and give a separate answer to each question.

Is there an entity behind the concept “I” ?
Is there someone saying “I”?
Is there a you to whom thoughts are speaking ?

Although I have seen that thoughts come from nowhere, I’m honestly still struggling to see the “I” as a thought. This is very difficult for me to do, even in quiet meditation, resulting in a feeling of being a failure and frustration.

No, it is normal to be in this position : “being a failure and frustration” is just a thought story, do you see this?

I can notice aspects of the “I” - like internal memories, pictures of my face, recognition of my name, and a feeling of contracted energy. But I quite simply haven’t got that “aha!” moment yet.

Don’t expect an aha moment : what is meant to happen will happen anyway. What you said above refers to thoughts (memories, pictures of my face, my name) and sensations (contracted energy) : are you thoughts and/or sensations ?

To answer your question, the sensation which is for me the “sense of self” is a feeling of contracted energy in the head region. It feels like a clenched fist or a tightness. That’s what the “I” feels like to me on a sensory level.

Is what is aware of these words a thought, a sensation?

It feels very sticky and often all-consuming - like, I can only ever see anything from the perspective of a colored lens that I’ve been wearing my whole life, that I don’t know how it got there, or how to even remove it.

There is no effort needed to remove it. There are beliefs, conditionings which continue to operate even after seeing through the illusion of a separate self. The first time you see a mirage you BELIEVE that there is water over there. The second time you see a mirage, you KNOW for sure that there is no water over there. It does not mean that the mirage disappears, but there is NO MORE BELIEF. That is the case here, the sense of self may arise but you know for sure that there is no entity there.

Sometimes the lens drops for a few moments, but mostly it comes back up again.

I invite you to watch these videos :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4

There is an awareness of this lens of “I”, but the space between awareness and the identification with the lens feels very minuscule.

Just be : is effort needed to be aware ? Just be aware of what is going on : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations, thinking (without taking the train of thoughts).

I go throughout the day trying to notice the sense of “I” and I can see that it feels like a contraction, plus there are memories and ideas associated with it. But nothing seems to be budging or clicking. Maybe I’m just being too impatient or not understanding properly.

“sense of I” as you say it : is a label superimposed on these memories and this contraction. Do you see that thoughts are thoughts only and a sensation is only a sensation?
As I asked above, is a thought aware ? Is a sensation aware ?

I appreciate your time and help.

You are much welcome.

[Aletheia]

Morning Warissem,

I wanted to share that there was a moment this morning when I realised that the “I” appears WITHIN consciousness (not consciousness appearing in or from the “I”). It was a flash of insight.

On to your questions:

Is a thought a subject which is speaking OR a thought is just arising : it is noticed like a cloud is noticed?

I think I get what you mean here - that thoughts aren’t themselves aware. They aren’t doing the speaking as if they are sentient entities themselves, they just arise. Yes, I can see that they just arise as clouds. The thoughts may say “I need to do this” or “I think it’s starting to rain”, but that is just automatic. And it can be noticed.

Yes. What is the mind in your own words?

I have always thought of the mind as a space within the head - as an internal place where private thoughts, emotions, and so on, occur.

Instead of what you wrote, let’s try this : there is a sensation. There is an interpretation about the sensation. There is chattering. Does it sound good?

Yes, this is a clear and precise breakdown, thank you. I’ve also noticed that sometimes there is a thought, an interpretation of the thought, and then an emotion that arises based on the interpretation of the thought (eg. Having the thought “I look ugly today.” Then interpreting the thought with another thought, “Others must think I’m ugly also.” Then an emotion of sadness or anger that arises because of that).
Is this also accurate? Or am I missing something.

Is there a thought speaking?
Or there are thoughts coming one after the other ?
Go back to the exercise about thoughts and practice it till you see clearly the answers. It is a great pointer to work with.

Okay. The thoughts have no sentience or self-identity of their own. They just arise one after the other. It is then the “I” that claims them. Correct?

You have missed these questions of the previous post : look at each pointer and give a separate answer to each question.

Is there an entity behind the concept “I” ?
Is there someone saying “I”?
Is there a you to whom thoughts are speaking ?

1. There is a contracted sensation that is often interpreted as “I.” But when labels are dropped, there is no “I.” The label dropping seems to be very important here. Am I right to say that?
2. When labels are dropped, there is no one saying “I.”
3. Again, when labels are dropped, when there is a not-knowing inner blankness, there is no “me” to whom thoughts are speaking.

No, it is normal to be in this position : “being a failure and frustration” is just a thought story, do you see this?

Yes, I can see this, thank you for pointing it out. It is indeed a story.

Don’t expect an aha moment : what is meant to happen will happen anyway. What you said above refers to thoughts (memories, pictures of my face, my name) and sensations (contracted energy) : are you thoughts and/or sensations ?

When labels are dropped, including the label of “me” , then thoughts and sensations aren’t “me” - they’re just what is arising.

Is what is aware of these words a thought, a sensation?

Neither - it’s just the sense of openness, awareness.

There is no effort needed to remove it. There are beliefs, conditionings which continue to operate even after seeing through the illusion of a separate self. The first time you see a mirage you BELIEVE that there is water over there. The second time you see a mirage, you KNOW for sure that there is no water over there. It does not mean that the mirage disappears, but there is NO MORE BELIEF. That is the case here, the sense of self may arise but you know for sure that there is no entity there.

Thank you for explaining this, I will reflect more on it.

sense of I” as you say it : is a label superimposed on these memories and this contraction. Do you see that thoughts are thoughts only and a sensation is only a sensation?
As I asked above, is a thought aware ? Is a sensation aware ?

Yes, this is a great explanation. Thoughts are only thoughts. Sensations are only sensations. Simple. But I was complicating it or confusing them.
And to answer your question, no, a thought is not aware and neither is a sensation - instead, they are *within* awareness.

***

I will look at those YouTube videos, thanks for sharing them.

Wishing you a wonderful day, wherever you are in the world Warissem (I’m in Australia).

Best wishes

[warissem]

Good morning

I read your post. I have to travel soon this morning, I will comment on your answers later.

Have a nice day.

[Aletheia]

Safe travels!

[warissem]

Hi Aletheia

I wanted to share that there was a moment this morning when I realised that the “I” appears WITHIN consciousness (not consciousness appearing in or from the “I”). It was a flash of insight.

Great. This "I" appears as what : a thought, a sensation?

On to your questions:
I think I get what you mean here - that thoughts aren’t themselves aware. They aren’t doing the speaking as if they are sentient entities themselves, they just arise. Yes, I can see that they just arise as clouds. The thoughts may say “I need to do this” or “I think it’s starting to rain”, but that is just automatic. And it can be noticed.

Good observations.

I have always thought of the mind as a space within the head - as an internal place where private thoughts, emotions, and so on, occur.

Don't give answers through thinking, look at direct experience.

Yes, this is a clear and precise breakdown, thank you. I’ve also noticed that sometimes there is a thought, an interpretation of the thought, and then an emotion that arises based on the interpretation of the thought (eg. Having the thought “I look ugly today.” Then interpreting the thought with another thought, “Others must think I’m ugly also.” Then an emotion of sadness or anger that arises because of that).
Is this also accurate? Or am I missing something.

Yes, thought- emotion- thought -emotion : it is happening and just welcome what is here without taking the train of thoughts. Emotion is an energy in motion, look at the raw sensation without a label, idem with sadness, anger, ... Look at their expression in the body, welcome them as a guest, let them come, let them go.

Okay. The thoughts have no sentience or self-identity of their own. They just arise one after the other. It is then the “I” that claims them. Correct?

What is this "I" which can claim thoughts or deeds? Look at this "I" and see what is here. is it a thought, a sensation, a sight, a sound, a smell, a taste?

1. There is a contracted sensation that is often interpreted as “I.” But when labels are dropped, there is no “I.” The label dropping seems to be very important here. Am I right to say that?

Yes, a sensation is a sensation, a thought is a thought. A label is a thought.
Does the label GREEN change the color which is seen?

2. When labels are dropped, there is no one saying “I.”
3. Again, when labels are dropped, when there is a not-knowing inner blankness, there is no “me” to whom thoughts are speaking.

Do labels change "what is"?
When you see that there is no tiger under your bed, is the label "tiger" change something?

When labels are dropped, including the label of “me” , then thoughts and sensations aren’t “me” - they’re just what is arising.

If you have seen that "me" is a label, how can a label do something?

Neither - it’s just the sense of openness, awareness.

Is it a living experience right now?

Thank you for explaining this, I will reflect more on it.

You are welcome, don't reflect on it, LOOK at it, instead.

Yes, this is a great explanation. Thoughts are only thoughts. Sensations are only sensations. Simple. But I was complicating it or confusing them.
And to answer your question, no, a thought is not aware and neither is a sensation - instead, they are *within* awareness.

How do you feel to see that?

I will look at those YouTube videos, thanks for sharing them.

Keep going.

Wishing you a wonderful day, wherever you are in the world Warissem (I’m in Australia).

Thanks a lot, I am in Algeria.

Best wishes.

[Aletheia]

Hi Warissem,

Great. This "I" appears as what : a thought, a sensation?

It appears as a thought (label, memory, etc) and sensation of contraction.

Don't give answers through thinking, look at direct experience.

Referring to your original question, the mind is really another thought when I look from direct experience. It’s just a thought about a size, space, and location.

Yes, thought- emotion- thought -emotion : it is happening and just welcome what is here without taking the train of thoughts. Emotion is an energy in motion, look at the raw sensation without a label, idem with sadness, anger, ... Look at their expression in the body, welcome them as a guest, let them come, let them go.

Yes, I like that - emotion is energy in motion. I can feel that. I can see that observing is the key.

What is this "I" which can claim thoughts or deeds? Look at this "I" and see what is here. is it a thought, a sensation, a sight, a sound, a smell, a taste?

The “I” is a thought and tight sensation in the head.

Yes, a sensation is a sensation, a thought is a thought. A label is a thought.
Does the label GREEN change the color which is seen?

Yes, I can see this. Thank you.

Do labels change "what is"?
When you see that there is no tiger under your bed, is the label "tiger" change something?

I see that labels are just labels. They can never accurately capture or define the movement of energy of life.

If you have seen that "me" is a label, how can a label do something?

A label can’t do something, you’re right. There is still contracted tight energy that seems to claim the “me” label though.

Is it a living experience right now?

When the intention arises to drop labels, yes, it is a lived experience. But then there is a forgetting and shifting back into unconscious “me” identification.

How do you feel to see that?

It feels good! Excitement and curiosity.

***

Thank you for your pointing and guidance :)

[warissem]

Good evening

You have done good observations. These are some comments.

A label can’t do something, you’re right. There is still contracted tight energy that seems to claim the “me” label though.

It is not a matter of right or wrong, you see for yourself.
Does energy claim something ?
You need to be free from thoughts : a sensation is not the label"me", it is not even the label "sensation" : it just is.
See definitely that the thought "this is me" is not true. Look at the sensation itself, does it think, does it see?

When the intention arises to drop labels, yes, it is a lived experience. But then there is a forgetting and shifting back into unconscious “me” identification.

I invite you to watch these videos :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4

Thank you for your pointing and guidance

You are welcome

Best wishes

[Aletheia]

Hi Warissem,

Does energy claim something ?

Would you mind explaining a little more what you mean by this?

You need to be free from thoughts : a sensation is not the label"me", it is not even the label "sensation" : it just is.

So it is what it is, in other words? Labels are just what are added on top. A sensation isn’t even a “sensation” but it just is.

See definitely that the thought "this is me" is not true. Look at the sensation itself, does it think, does it see?

Yes, the sensation itself can’t think or see, it just is. When the contraction and thought about self arises, i can only observe it. But observing it doesn’t shift the identification with it yet …

Can I ask what helped you to definitely see that the “me” is not true, Warissem? Sometimes examples or insights like that can help spark something.

I invite you to watch these videos :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4

“It’s a tiny first step but an important one”
“The fluctuations are normal, all is happening as it should”
“We did not get all our beliefs in a day, neither can we drop them all at once”
“Bring attention back to noticing peace.”
“When the old is falling away you are not meant to feel comfortable, it is temporary and it will pass.”
“The mind can’t accept this, it’s not understandable by the mind”
(Some of the things they said)

Very helpful, thank you.

***

Thank you, and happy Sunday :)

[warissem]

Hi Aletheia

Would you mind explaining a little more what you mean by this?

Is energy really experienced or there is a sensation + the label “energy”?

So it is what it is, in other words? Labels are just what are added on top. A sensation isn’t even a “sensation” but it just is.

Yes.

Yes, the sensation itself can’t think or see, it just is. When the contraction and thought about self arises, i can only observe it. But observing it doesn’t shift the identification with it yet …

What is observing contraction? What is observing thoughts about the self? This awareness (being aware) which cannot be known through five senses IS IT.
Is there awareness of these words in direct experience OR is there a need for a self to be aware of these words ? So simple, isn’t it?

Can I ask what helped you to definitely see that the “me” is not true, Warissem? Sometimes examples or insights like that can help spark something.

Narrating about what happened here is just a story. It won’t help you to see through the illusion. It is only more accumulated knowledge.

Glad to know that the 2 videos are helpful.

Thank you, and happy Sunday

You are much welcome.

[Aletheia]

Hi Warissem,

Is energy really experienced or there is a sensation + the label “energy”?

Yes, this is true. It’s just what is happening - energy is a label put on top. For some reason the label “energy” was looked over, and “energy” was taken to be the pure essence of something. But it’s just more words and stories. Labels and labels and more labels. The layers of the onion peeling back.

What is observing contraction? What is observing thoughts about the self? This awareness (being aware) which cannot be known through five senses IS IT.

There is a feeling of that; a recognition of the truth of that. Beyond labels, beyond senses, the field of a luminous kind of awareness holding the self as if it is a character within a story. The mind fights this so much, it hates it, it’s scared of it, it finds all the tricks in the book to avoid this. But regardless of that, the mind can never ever figure this out, can it?

Is there awareness of these words in direct experience OR is there a need for a self to be aware of these words ? So simple, isn’t it?

Yes, just awareness. Then the mind comes in. It is simple, very simple. So simple that it can be overlooked, or complicated, or the mind tries to figure it out, to possess it. Then, identification happens with thought, and the realisation is seemingly “lost” but this is a normal thing. The reality is never lost, it’s still there despite identification with thought.

Narrating about what happened here is just a story. It won’t help you to see through the illusion. It is only more accumulated knowledge.

Okay then, good point.

***

Thank you 🕯️