Finding nothing

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IngoD
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby IngoD » Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:48 pm

In direct experience, 'mind' doesn't exist. Look closer. Where does the impulse comes from in direct experience?
Than there is nothing else than an arising thought.
Do thoughts influence the controlling of the hand in any way?
Yes. Thoughts start the movement when the hand turns and when it should stop.
Can a thought control the movement of the hand in the same way each time? Is the speed the same? Does the hand turn in the same way each time?
No. Not exactly the same way. There is just an impulse.

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Bluejay
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:51 pm

No. Not exactly the same way. There is just an impulse.
Is an impulse the same as a thought for you?

And a few more questions...

Can the hand turn without a thought?

Do you think "turn" each time before you turn the hand or does the hand sometimes turn without a thought?

Is there a connection between the thought and the hand moving? Or are they separate? (Really look in direct experience. Don't go to thought for the answer)

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IngoD
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby IngoD » Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:02 pm

Is an impulse the same as a thought for you?
An impulse from a thought, yes. ;-)
Can the hand turn without a thought?
Yes, at some point the hand moves by itself. It just needs that "starting thought" that said: Hand, now move several times.
Do you think "turn" each time before you turn the hand or does the hand sometimes turn without a thought?
No. See above.
Is there a connection between the thought and the hand moving? Or are they separate? (Really look in direct experience. Don't go to thought for the answer)
It seems there is no connection after a while.

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Bluejay
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:05 pm

It seems there is no connection after a while.
If there is no connection, how does a thought start the impulse?

Or does the thought just pretend to start it?

Yes, at some point the hand moves by itself. It just needs that "starting thought" that said: Hand, now move several times.
Do you see that the idea "starting thought" is a thought also?

When there is no thought that moves the hand, look in direct experience how the hand moves. What do you find?

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IngoD
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby IngoD » Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:15 pm

If there is no connection, how does a thought start the impulse?

Or does the thought just pretend to start it?
I know what you're getting at. That's what I've experienced some days before: an action happens and a thought takes possession of that action as if it were the initiator of that action.

But to be honest: Unfortunately, I couldn't experience that during the hand exercise. :-( Probably I have to look closer...

Do you see that the idea "starting thought" is a thought also?

When there is no thought that moves the hand, look in direct experience how the hand moves. What do you find?
Yes. A starting thought is a thought.

The hand moves by itself, obviously.

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Bluejay
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:24 pm

I know what you're getting at. That's what I've experienced some days before: an action happens and a thought takes possession of that action as if it were the initiator of that action.

But to be honest: Unfortunately, I couldn't experience that during the hand exercise. :-( Probably I have to look closer...
Yes. Thought is a labeling machine that says it is doing things, when things are happening by themselves.

This is why it's very important that you look in direct experience. So when you said that there is "no connection after a while," look at that again.

There is an impulse to move the hand, but we want to find out where the connection is between the thought and the impulse. Where is it?

Find the connection within 1 centimeter. Can you find it?

If you close your eyes and flip the hand up and down, look for the connection. The thought is saying that it is controlling the hand. We have to be very precise so we can see if that is true or not.

The precision comes from looking in direct experience, which is sensations, images, sounds, tastes, smells, thoughts arising (but NOT their content).

If you cannot look with precision, or if you go into thinking, we will not get anywhere with our inquiry, because thoughts will never run out of things to say :)

This is also why I recommend you take time with each exercise so you can really look. If you are in a hurry, you will jump over things and assume what is happening (which is thinking). Does this make sense?

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Bluejay
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:27 pm

Sorry, I wrote images in the direct experience list, an internal image is a thought.

Here's the full list:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

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IngoD
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby IngoD » Sun Jun 25, 2023 8:04 pm

This is why it's very important that you look in direct experience. So when you said that there is "no connection after a while," look at that again.

There is an impulse to move the hand, but we want to find out where the connection is between the thought and the impulse. Where is it?

Find the connection within 1 centimeter. Can you find it?
I will do the excercise once again.
If you cannot look with precision, or if you go into thinking, we will not get anywhere with our inquiry, because thoughts will never run out of things to say :)
I understand very well. You may have already noticed that I find it incredibly difficult to work with direct experience. But I'm totally aware that I have to get this under control. I am very sorry for taking your time. But I recognize something starts to change. I will do my very best.
This is also why I recommend you take time with each exercise so you can really look. If you are in a hurry, you will jump over things and assume what is happening (which is thinking). Does this make sense?
Absolutely.

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Bluejay
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jun 25, 2023 8:12 pm

I understand very well. You may have already noticed that I find it incredibly difficult to work with direct experience. But I'm totally aware that I have to get this under control. I am very sorry for taking your time. But I recognize something starts to change. I will do my very best.
Not a problem. I'm here to guide and help as best as I can :)

After this, we can focus on some simpler exercises for direct experience.

Here are a few more questions to help you with the palm flipping looking:

1. Look what happens just before the hand moves. Pay attention to the sensations in your hand (the impulse is sensations). Look at which one comes first: sensations or thought?

2. If the hand is moved once without thought, it means it can move without thinking. A "starter thought" doesn't exist in direct experience. So do this:

- Move the hand without a thought
- Move the hand with a thought

3. An important question: How do you know the hand is moved by a thought? (without going into thinking)

Hopefully this helps.

Let me know if this is too difficult and we can go to the simpler exercises. It's not a problem at all :)

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IngoD
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby IngoD » Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:01 am

Good morning Henri,

something has changed since last night and this morning. There is a clear understanding of what the not-I is. Everything seems clear. But until now, these experiences could only come about through reflection. EXPERIENCING the non-I now has never been more meaningful. I still hope for your help - more than before. The goalless goal (which never was) could be very close. So that no one can step through.

I will answer your questions later.

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IngoD
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby IngoD » Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:02 am

*gateless gate

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Bluejay
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby Bluejay » Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:15 am

Good morning, Ingo!

That sounds great :)

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IngoD
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby IngoD » Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:31 am

Not a problem. I'm here to guide and help as best as I can :)
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
1. Look what happens just before the hand moves. Pay attention to the sensations in your hand (the impulse is sensations). Look at which one comes first: sensations or thought?
hahaha I tried to trick my hand. Through thoughts I gave an impulse to turn the hand, but the hand did not turn. Another impulse. No turning. At some point the hand HAS turned around and I could tell that the movement was there first and THEN the thought. But to be honest again: It's VERY hard for me to say what comes first.
3. An important question: How do you know the hand is moved by a thought? (without going into thinking)
WOW! This worked really fine! I told the hand to turn (thought) and the hand turned. Then I didn't thought anything and the hand turn anyway!!!

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Bluejay
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby Bluejay » Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:55 am

hahaha I tried to trick my hand. Through thoughts I gave an impulse to turn the hand, but the hand did not turn. Another impulse. No turning. At some point the hand HAS turned around and I could tell that the movement was there first and THEN the thought. But to be honest again: It's VERY hard for me to say what comes first.
Excellent looking. This one is very difficult. I looked again myself and it feels like it all happens at the same time, but when you really look, you see that the thought comes after, and sometimes not at all.
WOW! This worked really fine! I told the hand to turn (thought) and the hand turned. Then I didn't thought anything and the hand turn anyway!!!
Very good!

Now let's try this:

Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?


If anything is unclear, let me know.

Enjoy! :)

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IngoD
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Re: Finding nothing

Postby IngoD » Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:19 am

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
The preferences were already there. Didn't have to think about it.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
No, that wasn't a decision. That just happened.
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
No, I did not notice this "function".
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No, there was no decisive authority. The choice was crystal clear and simply appeared.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?
Excellent question. No. A feeling, of course, can not choose.


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