I don’t know

[atmajnani]

Hi Freshbundle,

In DE I do not sense sensation as different than awareness. I can’t find 2 things. I can only find one. Is it sensation or is it awareness or are those the same?...And regardless if sensations are here or not here, awareness remains and is not affected.

Yes, nothing is separate from awareness. Sensation just is! Nervous energy just is. You are totally right.
And now let me ask you: when the nervous energy comes do you identify with it and react promptly or just notice it?

The purpose of this dialogue is to understand the nature of thoughts and how they create an illusory 'I'.
You seem to be clear about the illusion of a separate self, what is the specific topic or belief you want to inquire?

Since September, I don't have availability to answer questions in the forum everyday. Some days are pretty busy and when I arrive home I just have the time for having dinner, shower and go to bed. If you prefer to continue with another guide with daily availability, I can request one for you. I understand that.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Alless]

Hello Freshbundle,

Admin has asked whether I would be happy to guide on this thread. I have been through the thread and see that Atmajnani is pressed for time to respond on a regular basis. So I'm happy to help out if that works for you.

First of all, is Freshbundle the name you prefer to use here? Or is there another name you prefer?

Like Atmajnani I will highlight questions for you to respond to in blue text so that they are easy to pick out.

Also I notice the challenge with the quote function. It took me a little while to get the hang it myself. Here is a video clip that might be useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s

I notice that the Subject title has changed between posts. Not that it is all that important at all but convention here on the forum is to leave the Subject the same for each post, so need to change it each time - Re: I don’t know will be the subject for all posts in this thread

Continuing on from what you and Atmajnani have been looking at we most probably will revisit the green and red exercise as the next step but first of all I will send this simple post as the first step to connect with you on the forum.

Let me know if the video on quote function helps at all.

Looking forward to working with you Freshbundle


Alan

[Freshbundle]

Thank you for clarification on all. Great. I will keep subject line, I will watch video so I understand how to better post with quote function and I’ll reconsider the name .
I’ll attend to this tomorrow and post again and look forward to revisiting green/red.

[Alless]

Hello Freshbundle

Good to hear from you. We'll take another look at the green / red exercise. But before we do - a quick recap.

This exploration in LU is for one purpose and one purpose only - to see that there no such entity as a "me"

We are depending totally on Direct or Actual Experience (AE or DE) to LOOK for no self.

So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation,not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising(but not their content)


This green / red exercise brings our attention to the aspect of SEEING and can be very helpful in illustrating how "mechanisms" of the mind can impose themselves in PURE SEEING. ( some would challenge the use of the label "mind" pointing out that it is just another concept. We will acknowledge that and use the word as a concession in language. We will use the word mind as a way of pointing to the phenomenon of thought and thinking)

Labeling is a mind mechanism and is one overlay that is happening so instantaneously that it happens for most people automatically without them realizing it. Labeling pervades the thinking mind. The aim is not to rid ourselves of labels (we have to use them to communicate in conventional daily living) but to see them for what they are. Labeling is sometimes described as at least one step removed from reality.

Here is an exercise to help see how labeling can cloud AE. (I’ll use AE as short for Actual Experience)

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN', what is the actual experience?



You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?



Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?



Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?



If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?



Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?



Let me know what is SEEN.




Don't worry at all about getting this "right" That is not the point at all. The point is that no matter what your response is, we will be able to work with that and discover aspects of the mind that might or might not have been apparent before.

And also do let me know the name you would like me to address you by.




With love


Alan

[Freshbundle]

GREEN', what is the actual experience

?

DE of this is not known, it has nothing to do with the color green or the color red or the label green or the label red.

You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?

We could say I am seeing red, because that is the color seen regardless of this label calling the color red ‘green’.
But what it is to see red has nothing to do with the label green or red. I can’t describe the experience of seeing red. Or why I would call it ‘red’ . It just is.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

What is here now in conceptual terms is the word green in the font color red. The reality has nothing to do with green or red. I can’t say that either label or color have anything to do with the DE which is seeing .

GREEN is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Yes, we could say green is a label overlaying the experience of red. I am not sure how the experience of red overlaying green would be any different. I can’t say I am having an experience of red. In this case I have no idea how experience and label go together at all.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels
Red

Redness not affected per se , it is still red. However in DE,
There may be a memory experience of being good or bad, memories like Christmas that “color” the experience of the color red. So now we have the word good in color red. Or we have the word Bad in the color red.
It seems the association to Christmas was made because we were originally with green and then we changed the label to good or bad and then there was the song about being good or bad at Christmas and the association of green and red to good and bad and Christmas.
In DE now I see color red with the label Good , label bad and the experience is elevated heart rate, beginnings of panic . All labels for sensation.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Redness does not become good or bad, (but) there
Is a sense that I am bad. Because if Christmas, my parents, what I didn’t do, how disappointed they are. Crazy.

Let me know what is SEEN.

I cannot tell you what is seen .

Name to be used

: Kristyn

Video on quote feature

So helpful!!!

[Freshbundle]

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’

Looking again , the labels have no affect on ‘reality’. This Christmas memory that arose in apparent association with green/red and good/bad … in DE seems to be sensation alone. I cannot discern what the labels Christmas or good or bad have to do with the sensation that seems to be associated with these labels. Looking now the sensation is the sensation and not even that.

[Alless]

Hello Kristyn,

There is much in this post ! And we can see again the challenge with languaging so I will do my best to be as clear as possible.

DE of this is not known, it has nothing to do with the color green or the color red or the label green or the label red.

There was initially wondering about what you were referring to here. What you say down further helped me see what you are pointing to in this first statement.........

I can’t say that either label or color have anything to do with the DE which is seeing

What I hear you saying here is that DE itself is a mystery which cannot be described.
Have I got that right?

We could say I am seeing red, because that is the color seen regardless of this label calling the color red ‘green’.

That's it !! You are reporting direct SEEING here without interpretation from the mind. Beautiful !!

For many, when they see this word GREEN the mind overrides the experience of pure seeing and the label 'green' is believed rather than the red color of the font.

But what it is to see red has nothing to do with the label green or red. I can’t describe the experience of seeing red. Or why I would call it ‘red’ . It just is.

I hear you saying that even using the most basic of labels here - ie the label red - is still too much of a concept compared to what is actually experienced.
Have I heard what you're saying correctly?

There may be a memory experience of being good or bad, memories like Christmas that “color” the experience of the color red. So now we have the word good in color red. Or we have the word Bad in the color red.
It seems the association to Christmas was made because we were originally with green and then we changed the label to good or bad and then there was the song about being good or bad at Christmas and the association of green and red to good and bad and Christmas.
In DE now I see color red with the label Good , label bad and the experience is elevated heart rate, beginnings of panic . All labels for sensation.

Wow !! The power of association which is another incredible mind mechanism. That a color can invoke such memories and emotions is such a mystery in itself.

If there is just pure seeing of the colors green or red with no "overlay"of any thought, do emotions still get triggered?




Or put another way, in recalling that memory can you "slow experience down" such that you can detect the first thought or first sensation that triggers the memory of Christmas as the color is experienced? (Don't worry if you can't because this is a bit of a challenge for most of us!! Just report whatever is experienced and we'll take it from there.)





We'll take this step by step so will give you the chance to respond before we add more.


With love


Alan

[Alless]

Kristyn

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’

Looking again , the labels have no affect on ‘reality’. This Christmas memory that arose in apparent association with green/red and good/bad … in DE seems to be sensation alone. I cannot discern what the labels Christmas or good or bad have to do with the sensation that seems to be associated with these labels. Looking now the sensation is the sensation and not even that.

I hadn't seen this post before I posted my last one !!! Thank you for this and if my question in the previous post is covered by your response here, just let me know as you respond to the previous post

With love


Alan

[Freshbundle]

Thank you for such thorough consideration.

What I hear you saying here is that DE itself is a mystery which cannot be described.
Have I got that right?

Yes. In DE, I have no description for red that relates at all to red or to the label red.

I hear you saying that even using the most basic of labels here - ie the label red - is still too much of a concept compared to what is actually experienced.
Have I heard what you're saying correctly?

Yes. Thank you. Correct. I cannot explain the experience that we call red. Label red says nothing of what is DE is.

If there is just pure seeing of the colors green or red with no "overlay"of any thought, do emotions still get triggered?




Or put another way, in recalling that memory can you "slow experience down" such that you can detect the first thought or first sensation that triggers the memory of Christmas as the color is experienced? (Don't worry if you can't because this is a bit of a challenge for most of us!! Just report whatever is experienced and we'll take it from there.)

Slowing it down, seeing color red / color green , just pure seeing with no thought overlay, the DE is nothing, open perhaps. No association.

When I’m slowing it down, if i don’t keep the thought /image out of Christmas vibe , there is a sensation . Vague nausea. And a feeling I am bad something is wrong. I am doomed.
In slowing it down, i am not sure I can sense if there is first a sensation that arises with green and red and good /bad and then the sensation leads to thought of Christmas with feelings of something is wring and vague nausea.

In others words, slowing it down I cannot tell if thought was first: Christmas or if contraction nausea sensation was first. leading to thinking Christmas.

Is it simultaneous, like being ‘hit with thought/image/sensation all at once? It’s like the thought/image Christmas go with the sensation, and more thought of being bad, something wrong.

Sincerely,
Kristyn

[Alless]

Thank you for your post Kristyn,

Let me jump straight to this part.

When I’m slowing it down, if i don’t keep the thought /image out of Christmas vibe , there is a sensation . Vague nausea. And a feeling I am bad something is wrong. I am doomed.

This is a very visceral example of the "binding" that is experienced through the interweaving of what can be considered two "elements" of an emotion, One element is the sensation and the other is the story around it.

ANY THOUGHT that arises with a sensation is part of the story - or a trigger for the story. The key to unbinding is to separate the story and the sensation. AND JUST STAY WITH THE SENSATION. Treat it as a visitor who you are very curious about and want to get to know. This can feel somewhat counter intuitive especially if the sensation is not one that we want to have around.

However if the sensation has a threatening quality - such as doom - simply drop the thought as best you can and gently be with whatever the raw sensation is. Just let it unfurl itself as best you can. It will change. How it changes is usually a bit of a surprise. It certainly is not likely to change as the "me" WANTS it to. And the changing reveals that there is a resolving of some nature happening. And here is another aspect which can feel counter intuitive - if our attitude is one of wanting to get rid of the feeling then that in fact tends to act like a tackiness that keeps it hanging around, Gentle, genuine curiosity is the key.

So f you can, please just sit with this sensation Kristyn or any other emotion that takes your attention. Let compassion for it in the moment be fully felt. When thoughts are noticed just let them know you are otherwise occupied. Do your best to not be distracted by any thought, concept or stories about what is happening. Thoughts about what is happening will pop up. Just notice them and come back to noticing. Any inclination to entertain thoughts about what is happening or anticipating any changing can pull you away from the critical attitude here which is - simply sit with the sensation as if you were watching a very timid little bird and notice every detail as best you can. If it starts to feel too challenging or overwhelming, don't push it - take a break and come back gently to it when you can. Let me know what happens




Now this emotional work - sometimes referred to as shadow work - will continue after seeing that there is no self. There can sometimes be a misconception that seeing through the illusion of no self takes us straight to a life of bliss!! While the rising of emotions doesn't prevent the realizing of no self in some situations it can act as a distraction. And there is a paradox here. Sometimes it seems to provide a key to seeing there is no self. What a mystery.

So whilst this shadow work extends well beyond the seeing of no self endeavor, getting a real feel on how to "navigate" it is more than useful.

So as all this is happening please keep LOOKING with this intent. Is there any entity called a "me" which can be found in any aspect of this exploration?




We'll leave it at this for today

With love


Alan

[Freshbundle]

So f you can, please just sit with this sensation Kristyn or any other emotion that takes your attention. Let compassion for it in the moment be fully felt. When thoughts are noticed just let them know you are otherwise occupied. Do your best to not be distracted by any thought, concept or stories about what is happening. Thoughts about what is happening will pop up. Just notice them and come back to noticing. Any inclination to entertain thoughts about what is happening or anticipating any changing can pull you away from the critical attitude here which is - simply sit with the sensation as if you were watching a very timid little bird and notice every detail as best you can. If it starts to feel too challenging or overwhelming, don't push it - take a break and come back gently to it when you can. Let me know what happens

Thank you for this instruction and all the explanation about how all the emotion has distracted me. The way that you explained is clear to me and I can see that emotion has been a distraction from clear seeing. A distraction that has been allowed. Until now I have not truly understood this. I will look in this way and finally feel confident to do so.

So as all this is happening please keep LOOKING with this intent. Is there any entity called a "me" which can be found in any aspect of this exploration

?

Yes, and this seems critical to bring into the looking, this is really fine tuning the looking. Thank you . This is very encouraging.

[Freshbundle]

simply sit with the sensation as if you were watching a very timid little bird and notice every detail as best you can. If it starts to feel too challenging or overwhelming, don't push it - take a break and come back gently to it when you can. Let me know what happens

Sitting with sensation, I notice that the closer I get to the sensation the less I can say about it. I simply cannot name it anything or connect it to thoughts. In DE the sensation and the thoughts that seemed previously connected , are not.

So as all this is happening please keep LOOKING with this intent. Is there any entity called a "me" which can be found in any aspect of this exploration?

There is no entity called me which can be found in any of this
Exploration into sensation .

[Alless]

Sitting with sensation, I notice that the closer I get to the sensation the less I can say about it. I simply cannot name it anything or connect it to thoughts. In DE the sensation and the thoughts that seemed previously connected , are not.

Fascinating Kristyn - that when you really look into the sensation no thoughts can be found ! This is saying the same thing as Vince talked about in a recent meetup that sensations contain no information. What you describe here is the de-coupling of thought and direct experience. Separating thought and the sensation / direct experience is the key to the dissolving of emotion and the breaking of the fetters.

This is the key Kristyn to approaching the rich gamut of emotions and feelings that life offers. When an emotion arises just keep attention gently cradling the sensation and let all thought float by. And simply be with the sensation and watch and feel into what happens

It's a beautiful way to live

There is no entity called me which can be found in any of this

Beautiful !!



So here is something to ponder in the heart. It’s called Bāhiya sutta. Look at everything through this lens for a day and see what you feel and notice.


In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
between the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.


It is one thing to look for something that is not there and another thing to know that there is nothing to look for.


What is noticed and what resonates with the truth stated in the Bāhiya sutta as you look through this lens and feel into your heart?


With love


Alan

[Freshbundle]

What is noticed and what resonates with the truth stated in the Bāhiya sutta as you look through this lens and feel into your heart?

This guidance has been such a gift. Thank you.

Looking through the lens and feeling into the heart is pure
Experience with no overlay, no resistance.
Only to be experienced through the lens in the present moment itself.

Beautiful. Simple.

[Alless]

Hello Kristyn

You say .....

Beautiful. Simple.

And so it is.



What comes to mind to send you today in this .........

Please read this next statement and feel right into it as you read

There is no such separate entity called an "I / me" There never was and never will be in any shape size or form. It only "exists" as an imaginary idea

Tell me all you can about what you FEEL about that statement




With love


Alan